European Tribune

Display:
Futures: are they payment today for promise of delivery in five years, or are they promise of payment for delivery in five years?

If the former, I would think the "real price in 2005 dollars" is higher than listed (adjusted for lost interest), while if the latter the "real price in 2005 dollars" is lower than listed (adjusted for inflation).

by jobh (jbh@lupus.ig3.net) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 05:33:45 AM EST
closer to the second.

Futures exchanges require full settlement once the contracts expire and the counterparties are matched.  BUT in the meantime, you have to have margin in place to secure your positions.  

For example, if you put a trade on in WTI for 1 lot at $60 (so $60,000 worth of oil as 1 lot = 1000 bbls), you have to pony up around $5000 IIRC whether you are the buyer or the seller.  This amount varies depending on your credit rating, history, overall net position etc.

If the trade moves against you, you have to put up more and more such that you have enough cash on deposit with the exchange that they can cover your loss if/when you liquidate.  IE if you sold at $60 and the market moves to $63, the exchange wants to have $3000+ in hand.  The + being enough to cover a days estimated move while they are shaking you down for more cash.

The same thing happens in OTC markets.  The credit guys spend a lot of effort tracking who owes who how much. You should see the scramble to net out positions when an Enron or Refco goes belly up. People put up margin or letters of credit or otherwise your positions get forced to close and the losses booked.  A BP or Exxon will usually have open credit with everyone as they are solid to perform.  Harken Energy under GW -- Full L/C per terms of counterparty drawn on a AAA bank!  A good credit manager is worth his/her weight in platinum.  Nothing worse than having a great trade with a counterparty that can't/won't perform.  Lawsuits take forever and usually recover jack.

this may not be 100% correct.  While I traded these things for years, I always worked for companies with stellar credit and we had lots of nice accounting types that handled the details.

But the rest of your argument is correct.  Trades settle in then current dollars.  However, the headline futures quote is usually for the prompt contract which only has 0-30 days left to run.  Not much interest rate effect over such a short period.  Interest rates are very much a part of a trader's analysis of his/her forward book.  Especially if there is a lot of derivative risk esp. options.

by HiD on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 05:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for the explanation. Is it then (approximately) correct to say that the 2011 price, $53.50, predicted by the futures market price corresponds to about $46 in today's money?

(assuming 2.5% inflation: 53.50/1.0256)

by jobh (jbh@lupus.ig3.net) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 11:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I am not mistaken you have to correct not by inflation but by the risk-free interest rate you can get on your money, but it really depends what question you are trying to answer.

The question I am answering is, how much money do you need to have today to have $60 in 6 years' time? You need much less than $46, because you can get at least 4.85% if you buy US treasury bonds. That is 33% over 6 years. So if you buy $40.27 in 6-year bonds today you'll have $53.50 in 6 years' time.

Now, you are right that, adjusted for inflation, that is $46 today. So, investing $40 today you can make the equivalent of $46 of today's money in 6 years.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 11:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but it really depends what question you are trying to answer

Indeed. The question I was trying to answer was: What is the real price, in 2005 dollars, predicted by the futures market? And the answer to that question must be to adjust for inflation but not for interest.

The result then is that the market really expects oil to drop (gradually) 25% in six years, not the 10% that the raw numbers imply.

by jobh (jbh@lupus.ig3.net) on Fri Oct 21st, 2005 at 05:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the point is, to you the future oil price looks like $46 because you expect your income to increase at about the average inflation rate. To the traders it looks like $40 because that's all the money they have to have today to pay for the oil in 6 years.

It looks paradoxical to me and I don't quite know how to resolve it. Both numbers are right for what they calculate, but notice that someone said upthread that the stock market is pricing oil stocks as if the long-term price of oil were $40. Maybe there's something there.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 21st, 2005 at 06:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series