it is bigger than the 'me' and 'him' thing.
It has since long become a conglomerate which consists of publicly worshipping the flag, always reciting the pledge of allegiance, the continuous ritornello to 'support the troops', the insistent references made to ones military service (i.e. presidential candidates), the publicly rendered appraisal (on C-Span) to service man: 'thank you for your service', the way people introduce themselves on tv shows "I, as a Korean, Vietnam war veteran" etc., the earnest, somber marches of naval, army and air-force personnel 'trooping the flag(s)' at national (party) conventions, the singing of the national anthem at football, baseball games and at political party congresses,etc.pp.
And who could ever forget Kerry's opening remark at the Democratic Convention? 'Ready for duty'.
It is sick.
Sicker than what happened during the last 20 years of the East Block and the USSR. It is probaly worse than what goes on in China today. "The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
However, you know what else is sick? or possibly just stupid? railing against human nature. Refusing to discuss a problem that costs millions of lives among people who are obviously open to that discussion.
I understand that these sorts of events are often so painful that it's difficult not to have an emotional response, but I don't think we can afford to indulge in that.
I didn't think this thread was about war or the powers that have declared war. I didn't think there was any celebration or approval in it, but I could be wrong. As I explained earlier, I thought it was about people.
Now the argument seems to be being made here that the people who fight in wars should somehow stand up or not fight or refuse orders. And I can see that case being made in the abstract, or in very specific incidences, but not in general. Nuremburg was mentioned and "following orders" was not a defense. But that was for specific cases. Even in that instance, the whole military wasn't convicted.
Also, I admit I'm not that educated and don't study war because I hate it, but I've never heard of an example in all of history where a war didn't happen because all the soldiers decided not to fight. So far as I'm aware, people are led into war and later the ends are declared. These decisions come from the top, not some democratic process.
So to me, this argument that the soldiers are responsible for is just unrealistic. I also don't like a lot of things corporations do, but I'm not going to blame all of the employees and shareholders. Like Bob and Migeru, I don't like the police all that much -- in fact I think many of the policies they enforce in the name of the drug prohibition are just as bad as any other war -- but I'm not going to blame them for the laws.
I'm very much against the death penalty. But I don't think we'll get rid of it by shunning lawyers, or expecting judges and guards to simply refuse to do their jobs.
I feel the same about Veteran's day that I do about Labor day -- it's good and honorable to remember the people who have died. It's good to discuss what happens to the little guys when power becomes absolute. And from that remembrance, we should bring forth discussions about how to not let it happen again. It's also a very good time to find out things we have in common, from whatever side we're on, to connect shared experiences.
I posted a photo of my grandma upthread and also told a story about my (turns out 3rd) great-grandmother -- not because I'm a warmonger or was happy about them being involved in war, but to say this happened in my family, too. Maybe we have stuff in common. I haven't seen anyone here making judgments about one side or the other being right or better.
In fact, I'm quite sure that war my Irish gran died in was probably really bad and unjust. But I'm not going to judge her for going, because her people were dying of starvation. And if this was a labor day thread, I might post a photo of my gr-grandfather who went down into the mines when he was 11 and lost the sight in one eye.
He was also orphaned because his mother died in childbirth and his father died young of black lung. The coal industry has done terrible things and are responsible for countless deaths and illnesses, but I don't judge my ancestors for having worked for them. Remembering him and telling his story wouldn't mean I was praising the industry.
It's human nature to talk about the dead, and to honor them. Sadly, it's also human nature to fight. For the most part, we've acknowledged that people can act in ways that aren't very nice, and we have lots of laws, governments, and other constructs to protect us from each other. What we don't seem to have learned yet, though, is how to control the constructs.
Expecting regular people to not participate in systems that they've constructed doesn't seem very realistic to me. What the systems are doing now is sick, I agree. But I also think it's futile to rail against the low-end participants. You've pointed out some big problems, what do you think the solutions are? Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
I've never heard of an example in all of history where a war didn't happen because all the soldiers decided not to fight.
Now seriously, consider the German Revolution of 1918, which resulted in The Establishment of the Weimar Republic:
Rebellion broke out when, on October 29, the military command, without consultation with the government, ordered the German High Seas Fleet to sortie. This was not only entirely hopeless from a military standpoint, but was also certain to bring the peace negotiations to a halt. The crews of two ships in Wilhelmshaven mutinied. When the military arrested about 1,000 seamen and had them transported to Kiel, the local revolt turned into a general rebellion that quickly swept over most of Germany. Other seamen, soldiers and workers, in solidarity with the arrested, began electing worker and soldier councils modelled after the soviets of the Russian Revolution of 1917, and took over military and civil powers in many cities. On November 7, the revolution had reached Munich, causing Ludwig III of Bavaria to flee.
There are many cases in history where regimes collapse because the security forces refuse to follow the Government's orders to repress civil unrest. Ultimately, the police and the military are the people, and if pushed to the limit will refuse to carry out their orders. Foot soldiers are more likely to rebel than officers because they are less committed to the institution.
Regimes don't colapse as soon as their grip on society or their popular support lessens, but only when their lack of legitimacy becomes apparent. Usually this is exposed by some otherwise minor event. Revolutions are not caused by their triggers. The causes are what poise the system on the brink of collapse. The trigger is just what pushes it past the tipping point. guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
I knew this part and probably should've added something about "until overall conditions become unbearable." You yourself say "if pushed to the limit." So obviously, this will happen when the whole of the general populace is unhappy with the situation. A similar thing happened during Bolivia's last uprising.
So yes, I know that people start refusing to fight when the whole of the population's opinion has turned. But that's not the case now, and probably won't be for quite some time. Do we want to wait that long? My question, really, is how to change this without letting things run their ugly course? Are there ways to divert or prevent power from running amok? Or do we just have to let these brute forces play out to their ends? It's my opinion we don't. Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
