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Privatisation is actually where currently processed EU legislation is heading.
Can you elaborate what you mean by "currently processed"?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 10:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Two months ago, the EP approved the Third Railway Package, strengthening it by calling for even domestic passenger services competition by 2012 (and international passenger services competition by 2008). It currently rests with the Council, I believe - the transport ministers already debated it, without too loud opposition. Bliar wanted to push it through during his presidency. Then it would be the national governments' turn to ratify it.

(I don't know about elsewhere, but in Hungary, the package is treated as a done deal, something to prepare for.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 11:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How is "passenger services competition" synonimous with "privatization"? What are the actual requirements?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 11:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you consider the outright sell-of of the entire SNCF as privatisation, then it isn't. If you consider the introducion of privately-operated rail traffic as privatisation, then it is. But this is only the explicit part.

The concept is to have a situation as we now have with roads: let there be a separate, national infrastructure owner, which is mandated to allot slots for trains without prejudice to competing transport companies. This in effect demands the splitting of national companies (which to some degree, in form of reorganisation, has already been executed), and the transport company successor(s) of the national railways will have to be treated as just one competitor on lines open to competition. (See my older diary why I think this is bad policy.) There is no such requirement, but the idea is that (a) the transport company successor will become a for-profit company that can be sold off, (b) public transport will become subsidized transports that can be done by any competitor on the market.

So even without outright requirement, opening up domestic competition can lead to privatisation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 11:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no problems with that if the actual infrastructure remains public, and if the state is allowed to run or subsidize services to remote/low traffic destinations.

In your diary you mention unifying technical standards. Who is going to pay for changing the gauge of the Spanish network? You may know about a Spanish train that can actually change gauge without substantial delays (developed in Spain because of the necessity of crossing the border with France).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 11:38:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(TALGO trains, in Spanish)

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 11:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, the origins of this technology were for trains to France, but this fast automatic one was developed for domestic high-speed trains.

Other readers might not know, so some further background: Spain has a broad-gauge network, but when it built its first high-speed line (opened 1992), in view of later linkup with the Trans-European network (which won't happen till 2009 at the earliest), it was built in normal gauge. But there is an even grander and bolder plan, considered earlier already but more seriously now under PM Zapatero, is to convert the entire network to normal gauge in two-three decades. In the meantime, however, to extend trains beyond the existting high-speed lines, the technology shown in the link was developed. (Since then another Spanish company, CAF developed its own rival system; both have contracts about a few dozen 250 km/h trainsets for Spanish railways.) An English page on the Talgo prototype can be viewed here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently Russia also has a different gauge from the rest of mainland Europe. The story is that in both cases the gauge was chosen to prevent France from invading by train (thank Napoleon for that one), but I don't know if that's true.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah! At least in the case of Russia, I heard something similar - but the theory was disproved in both world wars, when track gangs proved quite fast in changing gauges (done easily on traditional wood sleepers).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember the Irun railway station in Spain at the border crossing with France which was were all trains from Paris ended and if you wanted to continue on you had to change trains. I always perceived it as a way to control rail traffic into Spain especially under Franco but I'm no expert on the Spanish rail system.

Here is some info on the Russian gauge from Wikipedia

In the nineteenth century, Russia chose a broader gauge. It is widely believed that the choice was made for military reasons, to prevent potential invaders from using their rail system. Others point out that no clear standard had emerged by 1842. Engineer Pavel Melnikov hired George Washington Whistler, a prominent American railroad engineer (and father of the artist James McNeill Whistler), to be a consultant on the building of Russia's first major railroad, the Moscow - St. Petersburg line. The selection of 1.5 m gauge was recommended by German and Austrian engineers, it was not the same as the 5 ft (1524 mm) gauge which was in common use in the southern United States at the time. Russia and most of the former Russian Empire, including the Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus, the Caucasian and Central Asian republics, and Mongolia, have the official Russian measurement of 1520 mm, 4 mm narrower than 5 ft (1524 mm), though rolling stock of both gauges is interchangeable in practice.

Another interesting short article on the history of rail gauges is here.

I've always loved trains!

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 01:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another interesting story about TALGO (which I don't know whether it's true or not) is that, on the higher-quality, more level, less-curvature high-speed lines, TALGO trains are as fast as the much more expensive high-speed AVE trains.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what this information refers to, it could be multiple things.

  • One is that the first-generation AVE trains, which are TGV clones, started service in 1992 at reduced top speed - it was raised to 300 km/h only later.
  • The other possibility is that before Córdoba, there is a mountain crossing with strong grades, and the TGV just can't maintain top speed there.
  • The third possibility is a comparison done on the second high-speed line, the Madrid-Zaragoza-Lleida one, on which (due to a new signalling system still not ready for regular service) top speed is restricted to 200 km/h.
  • The fourth possibility is that the reference is to the new S102 class AVE train, which was manufactured by Talgo (factory name: Talgo350), and is capable of 330 km/h - tough it will go that fast only after the signalling is working (lot of pictures here).


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no problems with that if the actual infrastructure remains public, and if the state is allowed to run or subsidize services to remote/low traffic destinations.

Well I do, wanting an integrated service (not the mess in Britain) and not seeing much sense in paying the deficits of a low-traffic line (always vulnerable to cost-cutting demands) but not getting the profits of high-traffic lines.

Who is going to pay for changing the gauge of the Spanish network?

Well, gauge changing is not part of the unification of technical standards, so I suspect the grand Spanish gauge-changing plan will only be paid for by the Spanish state, unless some structural or other EU funds can be tapped. (Some of the gauge-changing is in a way pre-financed, BTW: the track of upgraded Spanish broad-gauge lines like the Corredor Mediterráneo was fitted with special sleepers, on which gauge changing is a relatively simple task.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I meant is that Spain will likely resist changing the gauge of existing lines. How does the EU expect French operators to operate in Spain?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean, the current proposed national plan (PEIT) will be abadoned?

How does the EU expect French operators to operate in Spain?

Well, on international passenger lines, that will be easy: when the line across the Perthus tunnel opens, no gauge problem. But French (or Italian, or German, or private SPanish) operators can buy gauge-changing trains, too. Freight is another issue, but one limiting even traditional transport with handover at borders. I somehow feel Ricardo's Principle is at work here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is great news for Talgo and CAF :-)

I was very surprised to learn a few years ago that Talgo had been chosen to provide the trains for the American line between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At around the same time, they even sold it to Germany, as night train!

And recently, CAF sold its own 250 km/h train (but in a non-gauge-changing verson) to Turkey, for service from 2007 or 2008 (most of the Ankara-Istambul line will by then be upgraded for 250 km/h) - beating rivals from Europe and Japan.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 12:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I mean is that if the EU were to rule that the different gauge is a barrier to competition and must be replaced immediately at Spanish expense there would be a lot of resistance. I guess the 20-30 years you mention in another post must be commensurate with maintenance schedules.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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