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Absolutely right. The oil standard is the dollar.

Iraq and Iran were just about to start selling oil in Euros and other currencies in 2002, which is why we hastened to invade Iraq.

Iran is still planning on opening an oil bourse in 2006, where oil will be sold in other currencies. In reply, we are getting ready to use tactical nukes on their nuclear research facilities.

Also, I would no depend at all on the Saudis being America's ace in the hole -- they are going to undergo a complete upside down revolution in the next few years.  Most of their population is under 25, and unemployed, and very upset about America being in the Middle East.  The House of Saud already has their escape planes waiting on the runway, and their money and diplomatic arrangements waiting overseas.

Frames exist within larger frames. Draw a larger frame around your opponent's frame; he will appear wrong or insufficient. This is how wizards play.

by Antifa (antifa@bellsouth.net) on Mon Nov 21st, 2005 at 07:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The war was not about Iraq or Iran selling oil in euros, and Iran's bourse will never work, for very simple reasons.

  • traders need a common currency to work together. Once they've set on one, it's really hard to make them change - hence the fact that a number of commodities are still traded in pound sterling despite the fact that the UK hasn't been the main market for quite a bit of time. The existence of a standard is more important that which one it is. Cf the dominance of Windows as an operating system: it's used because it's used. To switch, you need everybody to switch at the same time. Only a monopolist (or a monopsonist) can force that.

  • in addition, the oil market is not just about oil, today it is about all the financial instruments derived from oil - term sales, derivatives, structured products, etc... The same cosntraints as above apply to these markets, which are even more diverse and globalised than the oil markets. Also traders have all their references, price histories, and standard trading instruments based on the dollar. To change all this, again, would require massive effort and coordination (remember how much effort it took to switch to the euro in 1999)

  • the other thing you need to have a market is a stable and trustworthy regulatory and legal system. People will not go trade in Iran because the risks or abitrary interventions and meddling are too high. The euro can be an alternative to the dollar as a reserve currency because European rule of law and regulation is seen as acceptable, and the currency is backed by a real economy, but Iran stands no chance to impose any switch of any kind for trade, financial instruments or anything else.

Please forget these ideas, they are totally cut from the reality of financial markets.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 06:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know the details of the Iranian plan, but do your arguments hold true f.e. for Chinese traders too?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 08:21:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please forget these ideas, they are totally cut from the reality of financial markets.

There you go again, bein' all reality-based.  ;-)

Seriously, though, the current administration is admittedly operating in a non-reality-based world, right?  What does reason matter to them?  The very reasons you state for de-bunking this threat are the very reasons I see that the smallest threat is probably very real to these people -- they know all this too.  Plus, they believe, in ways normal people apparently can't grasp, that perception is everything.

I think they very much operate in a perception-based world.  Money isn't a real thing to them -- it's pure power.  They get more by manipulating perceptions.  They manipulate the stock-market, they peddle influence, they dip in and out of industries trading on insider knowledge.  Of course they see currency the same way.  And in this world, what is the reaction going to be if someone starts fucking around with intangibles?

You list these things as very important:  a common currency, existence of a standard, references, trustworthiness, and stability.

There's nothing concrete there.  These are all ideas, giant ones, held together by nothing more than mutual agreement.  I think the warmongers understand exactly the same how important these things are, and that's why they take any threat to the idea very seriously.  It doesn't have to seem real to us, it does to them.  Do you think control of the oil has anything to do with the war?  If so, do you think your idea of control and their's is the same?  Because I don't think they're all that interested in running refineries.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 03:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
;-)
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 04:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, c'mon!  What can it hurt?  (she asks reaching for the blue face-paint...)

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 04:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are great--lol, seriously to the face paint line.  
by wchurchill on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 05:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You raise an interesting point, i.e. that they would react to perceptions of a threat rather than to a real threat - and I have no good argument against that...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 22nd, 2005 at 04:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a common misconception to assume that any rational actor would respond to real threats.

The threat (that one takes into account in one's planning) depends always on one's perception of existing threats. These perceived threats are often different to real threats due various cultural and personal reasons and assumptions.

Usually you do not know real threats until afterwards when things have happened like they did and truth finally starts to filter through. This time lag could take long time depending on organization or person involved.

by Nikita on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 05:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How is the Gold Standard different from a fiat currency? I mean, where does the intrinsic value of Gold come from? The value of Gold is, at heart, that powerful people (who are basically running a protection racket) will like to wear gold jewellery to display their power. I mean, there's nothing else gold is good for other than making jewellery (and don't bring up electrodes for hydrolisis, or electronic circuits, because powerful people don't care about that).

So, money based on the Gold standard is based on the belief that, if the going gets tough, you can buy the favour of powerful people by giving them gold so they can look pretty.

A fiat currency, all right.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait, is this comment supposed to be in reply to my comment?  And if so, do you think that what you and I are both saying is opposed or contradictory to each other?  Because I think what you're saying is exactly my point -- it's not about the intrinsic value at all.  That's what I was getting at.  It doesn't make the "values" or the "threats" to them any less real, it's just that we're dealing with something else entirely besides oil the commodity.  

We're dealing with, I think, the problems associated with whatever is the agreed upon standard, be it gold, oil, seashells, or whatever else.  It is, at bottom, all about trust.  The problem with people like the current administration is that they don't really understand trust.  They only understand loyalty, fear and force.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 05:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm just pointing out that people usually think of gold as a sure asset that will not lose its value in a time of crisis, but if you think about what the value of gold hinges on, it's as much of a fiat currency as any other.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 05:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it's a tangible symbol of worth and, as long as everyone agrees on its value, it is something to hold on to when trust breaks down.  But, in essence, you're correct.  The problem in discussing these things, is that it's difficult for people to grasp certain intangibles when certain dynamics are in play.

And I wouldn't say that the whole idea of gold was to bribe favors from the powerful.  I'd say it was a tangible manifestation of something of agreed upon value that could be used to back up pieces of paper that we would trade -- something to show so it wasn't all just trust.

But, if a monarch or country printed pieces of paper based on gold that was hidden somewhere, but in reality that gold had been looted -- would the rulers still fight to protect the hiding spot?  It's been shown throughout history that they'll fight harder to protect the revelation that there's no gold than they would to protect the actual gold.

So at what point does it make a difference?  And when one thing is a symbol of something else that may or may not even exist, does that make the subsequent warring any less real?  Because I'd argue that much of the behavior we're witnessing right now is a result of something like gold fever, even though there's no gold involved.  

The oil, having some useful purpose, actually clouds our vision when we're trying to understand what's going on.  Just because we have a fiat currency, doesn't eliminate the human impulses behind certain behaviors we've seen in the past.  That's why I think some things can be about the oil and have nothing to do with oil at the same time.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"A symbol of worth that everyone agrees on" is a fiat currency. It is a symbol, and its value is consensual.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly my original point!  My point (in case it is as really fucking confusing to you at this point as it has become to me), is that there can be a percieved threat to this idea and that, because it is intangible, it will be fought more ferociously.  What point are you making?  And please, please to not bring math into it!  My head's gonna explode already!!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're just agreeing to agree.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, thank goodness!  Can we tell each other how smart and wonderful we are now?  Migeru, you're like a brother to me!!  Well, except that math thing would be sort of freakish in my family, but besides that...

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:46:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're so smart and wonderful, please spare me the compliments.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 23rd, 2005 at 06:48:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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