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What's persuasive about the points? Oxfam says the lions share of subsidies go to large farms so the excuse that the subsidies are there to protect small farmers is bullshit. The numbers back them up.
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 8th, 2005 at 10:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if the smaller farmers are getting more subsidies per hectare, or more subsidies per amount of produce, all their numbers are is an argument for land reform: a criticism of the fact that families like the British Royals and Albert of Monaco gobbled up a lot of land by force a long time ago.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 03:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The points are persuasive.

Oxfam notes:


This gives a lie to the French argument that it uses EU subsidies to support its small farmers.

It did not say it uses EU subsidies "only" to support small farmers. The affirmation that it uses the subsidies to support its small farmers is true, even if it is not the only thing it uses them for.

As pointed out in the link above to an earlier diary (Some facts about CAP), the CAP has ALWAYS been seen by the French as a way to support production, not producers, and they certainly have not been the first to use the argument that it supprots small farmers. Neverheless, as noted above, the proposal of a CAP per farm on subsidies was blocked by the UK, because thye have a higher proportion of large farms. So who's hypocritical.

ATinMN's arguments that Oxfam's statistics do NOT prove the points they are trying to make is correct. That does not mean that CAP is all good, but if you use bad arguments to criticise it, it can only penalise you political goal (to reform it).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 04:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So that's your defense:  (A) some of the money does go to support small farmers, (B)  we never really committed to that line of bullshit, and (C) the Brits are worse?  Well, I'm persuaded. Oxfam really are a bunch of swine. Liberty, equality, sugar beets! All those mozambique whiners need to get a life - or perhaps that's not the best phrase to use for starvation victims, but what the hell.
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 09:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
CK,

Let me begin where we agree.  If you build them (subsidy mechanisms), they will come (wise guy profiteers who game the system legally or not).  CAP helps the big guy a lot before it helps the little guy a bit so the needy farmer defense of it is disingenuous.

But what's with the "African country of the minute" posts?  First it was Kenyan farmers allegedly starving because of fancy English tomatoes, now it's irony about people whining in Mozambique.  Nothing Jérôme has said suggests indifference towards the hungry so you're really being a bit harsh.  

Now for Africans: I've bought green beans at a Paris grocer that were produced in Kenya (anecdote, sorry). As for Mozambique, they clearly are not well off but I'd blame colonization, post colonial soviet style government and civil war way before farmer Brown/Marron from Idaho/Poitiers for their plight.  I've read a lot of what you've written and often agree but this "look at the poor Africans" line of reasoning might sound condescending and insufficiently backed by data to some.

Cheers

by Guillaume on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 11:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is the moral problem with the subsidy. It is well documented that (a) subsidized food exports cause poor people in the third world to lose their homes and be forced into the big cities where they can work in the informal sectors so beloved of Chicago school economists (selling chiclets, prostitution, pettytheft, just starving, etcetera) and (b) subsidized competition to possible exports (e.g. sugar beets) take away some of the few opportunities that poor nations have to earn hard curency. So when the EU and US are forcing poor nations to open their markets to subsidized exports while at the same time protecting their own farmers, it seems to some of us to be immoral. When these immoral policies are defended with fraudulent claims that the objective is to save angelic, but sturdy,  rustic yeomen and their Bruegel-meets-Organics traditional way of life, it gets a little sickening. When Oxfam points out the bad faith of the EU excuses, attacking Oxfam is poor form.

As for the multiple African countries, I could throw in some Jamaicans and Brazilians, if you want.
 

by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 11:46:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 by citizen k: ...When Oxfam points out the bad faith of the EU excuses, attacking Oxfam is poor form. ...snip

My criticism is NOT about form but content. It boild down to this: Where Halliburton is the major global war profiteering corporation, OXFAM is the major global hunger profiteering charity. Both get stinking rich on public money (or subsidies), which allow their execs to live extravagant lifestyles. I also pointed out that OXFAM has unsound business practices which are not even compatible with the ethic code to operate in the capitalist lion den of Wallstreet. To make it even clearer: OXFAM is the gatekeeper who stands between the poor in 3rd world countries and the donor countries in the 1st world. Their main task is to make sure that the peoples will adopt to their (Oxfam's that is) project dev plans and methodologies. They introduce 'modernity' and western thinking to the 'natives' societies. They also keep their hands tightly on the purse (whilst being paid grotesquely high experts fees)and make sure that they keep in control. The indigenous people and their leaders are assigned a role of sub alternity. They are also expected to bow to the technical, operational and professional wisdom of their OXFAM overlords. I have seen these guys at conferences here and on the field overseas. It's Burmese days all over again. Hypocrites and hunger profiteers.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 12:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But your criticism is irrelevant. If Haliburton says that a certain boring angle is bad, you'd be a fool to disegard it because you didn't like their cozy deals in Iraq. Whatever your grievance against Oxfam, their critique of the immoral EU agri subsidy is on target.
 
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:11:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would tend to agree with Ritter on this, having seen some of the NGOs in action over oil projects. I won't give any names, but that's how it goes.

NGOs want oil companies to spend money locally (good idea) and to pay decent amounts to the host government (mostly a good idea), but they then say that these governments and local authorities are corrupted by the oil money and need outside supervision (i.e. theirs) to spend it "properly". While they were no doubt well-intentioned at the start (pushing to spend on schooling, local development ,etc...) what they are now doing is perilously close to

(i) neocolonialism (the locals are too dumb and too corrupt, let's "help" them;

(ii) racketeering of the big oil companies, who pay them to get the stamp of approval provided by the still highly positive reputation of these NGOs;

I'll say that ironically, the NGOs are still probably cheaper to "buy" (if more time consuming) for the oil companies than the local authorities, and thus the local populations are probably losers in that transfer...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Does that surprise you?)

The cotton subsidy to American producers is loathsome.  Cotton farmers in western Texas deliberately plant thousands of hectacres of short-staple cotton and then hope the crop fails -- in order to get the Crop Failure Insurance and so they can re-plant a crop proper to the area.  The cotton is substandard, hard to gin, hard to spin, and is manufactured into a substandard fabric.  Meanwhile the crop is dumped on the market at much less than the cost of production depressing cotton prices world-wide and is directly responsible for starvation in African countries.

The situation is compounded by the fact African long-staple cotton is prefered by the market and is made into a desired high-quality fabric.

I will be even more forthright:  American cotton subsidies starve Africans to death so President Bush can received political support for bombing Iraqis in the attempt to control oil resources.  

This drives me absolutely crazy but there is diddle-squat I can do about it except make long posts pointing out policy alternatives in the hope someone, somewhere, will read them, have the interest in the presented alternative, and have the political 'pull' to actually do something to actually change the objective conditions.

by ATinNM on Wed Nov 9th, 2005 at 01:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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