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I'm even more sick of old British socialists who go play golf in Benidorm on golf courses watered with the drinking water Southern Spain does not have.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 07:42:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I may paraphrase...

I'm sick to death of Jews complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

and...

I'm even more sick of old Jewish socialists who go play golf in Benidorm on golf courses watered with the drinking water Southern Spain does not have.

Let's try and keep the rampant xenophobia out of the discourse.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 07:58:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well,

  1. Jews who would complain of subsidization and then drive down to Benidorm wouldn't be all Jews,

  2. 'Jews' in Europe is an ethnical denomination, not possibly a citizen-of-a-country denomination,

  3. I am not Spanish (nor have been there yet).

I think my own statement was an entirely well-focused political statement with zero xenophobia in it.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was a blanket generalisation about a particular cultureethnic group you were making. It was offensive.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:07:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In what way was it a blanket statement? It was a statement about just exactly the cultureethnic group that is hypocritical in its complaints. Which members of ther anti-subsidy-but-subsidies-benefitting people do you think doesn't deserve my scorn?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sick to death of Britons complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

This is bigoted agi-prop. That was my point. Bigoted agi-prop that defames an entire group.  

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The old British socialist is someone I know personally. The irony of exporting a game invented on Scottish grasslands that need no watering to an arid climate where drinking water is at a premium is lost on him.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But reading your original post it does not single out one British socialist it says it of them all.

Now, are you referening to the British Socialists who fought Franco during the Spanish Civil War. That fight was a defining momement for many on that generation of the British left.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry to generalize, being Spanish and having lived in Southern California I am quite sensitive to water issues in general, and the worldwide spread of the English grassy lawn as a lifestyle/cultural icon in particular. Plus, I was really incensed by this socialist, state education advocate, rotary-clubber, golfer friend of mine and his inability to see the social implications of his little Spanish glofing vacation (including cheap, environment-destructive flights).

I do hold the highest respect and gratitude for the International Brigadists, who fought in vain.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:36:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The subtitle of my personal blog, "If you tolerate this, your children will be next" is from the title of a Manic Net Preachers song about these International Brigadists, itself taken from a Spanish Republican propaganda poster on the terror bombing of Madrid (second from left, sorry found no bigger version):



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It took me a while to figure out what "terror bombing of Madrid" had to do with the Civil War, I thought immediately of March 11...

It's rather sad that googling "If you tolerate this your children will be next" brings up the music album cover but not the war propaganda poster.

Now, to go completely off-topic, Basque nationalist leader Arzalluz once said "for us the Bombs and for Madrid the paintings" in reference to the Guernica being in a Madrid museum. It made my blood boil.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apology accepted. For myself, reading about the Spanish Civil War and the international left's role in fighting Franco was one of my "coming of age" political events.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For me it was learning about the Spanish left's sabotaging of its own war effort, with assistance from the International left.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a rather snooty thing to say, given what we have to read (now and for so many years) in the British press.

I'm British and I'm not complaining about the tone of DoDo and Migeru's remarks.

In fact, if we had less xenophobia from Brits, Europe would be a better place.

Said from the heart but with no personal hostility.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I did find it offensive. The casual, and accepted Brit bashing on this site is why I rarely participate in conversations and debates in this site.

You might feel diferently, but I do not.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RogueTrooper, it would have been Brit bashing if it had been a statement about all Britons.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:13:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It reads as "all Britons".

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now paint me blue, maybe I still haven't learnt English well enough, but could you please explain how my sentence is not about only those Britons who

  1. oppose subsidies for other EU countries,
  2. but benefit of them on their holidays to Spain?


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm... I must ask for your apologies.

I re-read what I wrote, and indeed, it can be read that way. So here is a better wording that can't be misunderstood:

I'm sick to death of those Britons who first complain of subsidizing other countries - then drive down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sick to death of Britons complaining of subsidizing other countries - then driving down to Benidorm on roads paid for by these subsidies.

Should then read...

I am sick to death of the type of Britons who complain about subsidising other countries - then driving down to
Benidorm on roads paid for by those subsidies.

Now, please forgive my cynism of your innocence but In the article Jermome posted contained no references to Benidorm. What was the point of raising this as an example?

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I may make a suggestion to get something good from all this? As homework for all those rumbling against the nefarious Brits, why don't we come up with a list of those politicians (let's start with them) that
a) booh at the CAP & bitch at the subsidies
b) take a holiday in Spain or Portugal

The first step is pointing out the hypocricy in their statements. If this works, we can extend the research to the pundits and bash them on the heads with it, too. As RogueTrooper shows, there are plenty of Brits around who simply don't agree on all the talking points in the newspapers.

I've been thinking more and more about this, but we need in Europe (also in Brussels) a more clear name-and-shame platform for individual politicians.

by Nomad on Fri Dec 9th, 2005 at 04:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm afraid I disagree about "the casual, and accepted Brit-bashing on this site". There may be comment against the British government, and against certain attitudes in the British press, but I don't see what you choose to call "casual Brit-bashing".

Please, will you take a look at the articles from the FT Jérôme excerpts from at the head of this thread, and put things in perspective?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where are you located RT? I'm currently stuck in the People's Republic of South Yorkshire...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or if you like, RT, shall we play the same game with Jewish farmers holding the WTO to ransom, etc?

I'm afraid it's an easy game to play, and it's excessive.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but that's exactly it.

Please replace "French" by "Jew" any day in the British press and you will be surprised by what you read.

The reverse is not true.

You will note that I criticise the coverage by British press of France or issues where France palys a role, not British citizens, and I stand by that.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rogue Trooper, you loose per direct application of Godwin's law

Britons, the new Jews of Europe? Get a grip, my friend. You are ridiculous.

And that's coming from a French guy whose sig quotes one of the most quintessentially British Briton ever, the great late Henry John Temple, third Viscount Palmerston.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please, we just managed to climb down before the start of a flame war, do not make it restart!

Both I and Migeru apologised in the end.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:16:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let them have their Anglo-French fun... it's as if the 100 years war didn't teach them anything.</snark>

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:18:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm from Barcelona.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose that is consistent with your saying you're not from Spain.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in fact, the guy from Barcelona is in truth from Berlin.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I get it, you two are foreign agents provocateurs.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:45:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hapsburg infiltrators, to be precise.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:20:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah. Then the French and British are going to...

Conclude an alliance against you.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The nNormans are coming! The Normans are coming!

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 10:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the deal with all those Fawlty Towers jokes? It took me almost 4 hours to figure this one out.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well at least you for one have figured something out.

(Fawlty Towers?)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Follow DoDo's link, then feed the name you'll see and "barcelona" into google and hit "I'm feeling lucky".

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't even see the link. Wow. Impressive. Wheels within wheels.

And dead on topic: European nationalities, difficulties of understanding between, foodstuffs...

Mr Fawlty, 'e put mince in my paella...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 12:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDoism at its best.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 01:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oooops, so sorry

I wrote my response before lunch and hit the post button after. Didn't see the development. Anyway, you shouldn't have (apologised). If we can't indulge a bit of trans-European bashing once in a while, where are we going ... :>
by Francois in Paris on Thu Dec 8th, 2005 at 09:46:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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