But I thought part of this gambit had great value, the part where he says, "You want Israel to exist, why not create it in Europe?"
I think he's saying, "Why did you Europeans figure you had the right to carve up Arab lands, and give them away to whoever you choose? Why didn't you carve up your own land?"
Now -- it's not very practical considering that -- unless I'm off in understanding things --the Jewish state really wants to possess certain holy sites for their religion, and those sites are on formerly Arab territory (Palestine, to be specific).
I think the problem arises that the state of Israel, as presented, again, if I get the issues correctly, does NOT want to share these holy sites with persons of other religions who also revere the same sites.
There's not a compassion or generalization, "If we want access to these holy sites, and others do too, why, we're the same, so let's not deprive anyone else in the same way we'd not want to be deprived."
I spent 2-3 years reading Israeli papers in English, and really in a ton of pain about the situation there. Yeah, atrocities. Stealing land, uprooting entire producing orchards of trees, buying land and holding it for one race/religion, away from another race/religion. Helicopters gunning down people in cities. Stuff like that. Little details of daily governance.
Now, I don't care what the names of the religions involved are. Could be any of hte world's ethnic groups, or major religions oppressing another group in the name of (fill in blank) [g-d] [God] [Allah] [the purity of my race] [more water for me] [more gold for my people] [kicking the crap outta you so we feel better] [you guys look wierd] [you guys eat differently] .
I'm just saying it tears my heart out, and it offends my sense of fairness, and hopes for justice for all mankind, to read raw news stories about the treatment by the power-up group in Israel, of the power-down group.
I will say this, it looks like insanity to me, from my distance in the USA. Would you want to live there as one of the power-down group? In your ghetto? Watching your great-grandfather's orchards ripped up? Watching your house torn down? Kids can't go to school? Have you read the reports of the Refusniks who detail what happened in the Territories when they served there?
Would you want Israel's behaviors towards their power-down group in a neighbor country? What about that treatment is not insane?
I'm not saying this Iranian isn't a nut-case, but I will say this.
First: EVERY time anyone in the USA says anything vaguely disapproving of Israel, or hinting that their treatment of their power-down group might be nutty, wrong, or worse, we presume we're going to be jumped on by one and all. So I presume I'll be jumped on. Fine. Go for it. It's already said above.
Second: In each of his paragraphs above, I find information to ponder, not to dismiss out of hand.
First graf: Personally, I believe the numbers quoted for the killing of Jews and others by Hitler are accurate, so I only learn from his first graf. Huh -- he really believes that? Wow.
Second graf: Well, at least he's willing to consider that he's wrong. A point for him. Now he asks, roughly, "Is Europe's guilt over Hitler's treatment of Jews that which causes them to turn a blind eye to what Israel does in the name of their state to relatively helpless millions now?"
What's invalid about that question? If it were Hutus and Tsutsis (spelling probably wrong), would we answer in the same way -- as if it's Israel and their power-down millions? Would we? Would you?
If not -- why not?
Do you have a pretty 3D picture of what life for the average Palestinian living in the Terrotories is like? And how that's changed in the last decade? And in the last 30-50 years? What privileges they have and don't have? Compared to the privileges a mile or 500 feet away?
If you do, do you think that is a sane situation?
Third graf: If Europeans wanted Jews to have a separate state, why not give them land in Europe? Africa? Asia? United States? (Which turned away at least one entire boatload of Jews in the midst of WWII, because of prejudice, not wanting them to land on USA soil.)
I think he has a darned good question --WHY didn't any of these other continents open up territory for a Jewish state? Prejudice? Selfishness? Any chance they regarded the Arabs as sub-human, so why not just carve up their territory to suit the Westerners' ideas du jour?
Why Arab lands?
Fourth graf: Why DO the Anglo races run about imposing their wills on other countries? Sure seems to be quite a bit of it going around today.
I mean, Iran is in the meatgrinder with the US rattling sabers, microphones, and who knows what all else -- to the end of invading Iran, to the end of bending it to the USA's will, and likely stealing its resources.
Not to mention, Israel is threatening to drop a nuclear bomb on Iran, and the USA likewise... Nuclear bombs are a gift that keeps on taking for thousands of years. And the USA is camped out on one of Iran's borders.
Is there even the remotest reason for this guy to have said what he did?
Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces (...) Although we don't accept this claim,...
(...)
Although we don't accept this claim,...
is profoundly irresponsible. Thr holocaust is not a "claim", it is a fact. Denying it is indeed a crime in several European countries and it is particularly obscene a thing to say for the Head of State of any country.
Now it is obvious that the Holocaust does not justify all Israeli policies, and that the ulterior motices of Europeans in bringing about the creation of Israle can be discussed, but you will never bring any sympathy to your arguments by denying the Holocaust.
By making such claims, the Iranian President totalyl decredibilises any reasonable argument against the current Israeli policies and actions, and against US policy in the region. So it's not just iresponsible and obscene, it is counterproductive and dangerous to all. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail
Stuff like this might be enough for, for instance, Germany pulling out of the negotiations around Iran's nuclear program. Iran does need some European mediation there, otherwise it will be just the US and the IAEA, and we know how that turned out last time around.
I really wonder whether Sharon's recent shakeup of Israeli politics is not an attempt to get peace with Syria, Lebanon and Jordan as soon as possible, in anticipation of a meltdown in Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Finally, I played down Ahmadinejad's previous comments, but now it's obvious I was wrong. guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
Seems the Iranian President is a horrifying nutcase in denying the holocaust and complaining about those, who take people who are holocaust deniers to the shacks. Fully agree with you that his words are dynamite for the hate they generate and I consider him recklessly evil.
Reminding us to the Pottery Barn's rule though, I take as a challenge that I don't mind to face. Just imagine the German younger generation would embrace the idea to invite the children of the holocaust survivor population back to Germany and arrange for them to have their property back in form of land and houses.
I would do that in a heartbeat (if I were sure the young populist and racist-prone neo-nazis wouldn't take over again and make a mess out of us). I dream of a Berlin with all the influx of Jewish academia, artists, humorists, merchants ... aach, that would be sooo beautiful. We could become a true cultural melting pot.
The regions my parents grew up with and went to school with up to 70 percent Jewish kids in the twenties would become a hotbed of cultural revival again. May be the free Poland of today would love to have the grandchildren of their own Jewish holocaust survivors now living in the US come back and visit and may be stay. Imagine that !!
If I think it through, I could have a dream ... like Martin Luther King ... may be would all could share the Holy City and leave the truly holy parts of Israel to the Jewish population, but definitely I would love to have them back in Germany, in Eastern European countries and France. Well, I guess I am dreaming, but ...
I met for the first time in my life Jewish people only here in the US and if it were not for them and their influence in academia, law and the media here, I would feel completely lost in the US. I just love their brains, humor and spirit. They are the most European Americans, no doubt about it, and that makes me feel closer to them than to other Americans. Strange may be, but it's true.
So, tell this fanatic Iranian President, that I would love to give Schleswig-Holstein (where I grew up) to my Jewish brothers and sisters, though I would recommend they better hitch-hike over to Berlin. It's just more fun over there. :-)
I have a certain kind of analytical training about what other people are thinking. It requires me to ask questions about what he really believes, vs jump to conclusions. The short mnemonic for this is "Is it 'no', or 'know'?" That is, is it a question of him saying "no" to the truth, or is it a question that he simply doesn't know (hasn't been exposed to) the truth?
So I ask: OK, this is what he *says, but what does he believe? Is this rhetoric on his part, or does he REALLY believe this. *If he believes the Holocaust numbers aren't factual -- seemingly true from his statements -- then: A) Is he open to changing his mind if he learns other facts? B) If he IS open to changing if he learns other facts, then how do (I) (we the human race) get those facts to him? In what form? Letters? Videos? I mean, folks, I grew up in the midwest of the USA, and people would vacation there from the East coast, and be TOTALLY astonished that the whole thing wasn't still overrun with cowboys and Indians. That is: a LOT of groups have seemingly ridiculous assumptions about places and peoples not that far from where they live. Another example: I'm surrounded by people who have ridiculous stereotyped attitudes towards Muslims, Arabs , etc. (OK, a list too long to go into, sigh.) I mean, I'm looking at this like I'm watching someone watch a weight fall from a tower, and then deny gravity has been proven. From *my point of view, it is very wierd to dispute the numbers killed in the Holocaust. From his POV (point of view), it seems to be normal.
I mean, folks, I grew up in the midwest of the USA, and people would vacation there from the East coast, and be TOTALLY astonished that the whole thing wasn't still overrun with cowboys and Indians. That is: a LOT of groups have seemingly ridiculous assumptions about places and peoples not that far from where they live.
Another example: I'm surrounded by people who have ridiculous stereotyped attitudes towards Muslims, Arabs , etc. (OK, a list too long to go into, sigh.)
I mean, I'm looking at this like I'm watching someone watch a weight fall from a tower, and then deny gravity has been proven. From *my
As far as I've gotten at this point is to toss that into the gears of my brain, or the compost heap in the back of my brain, as it were. I'm astonished about it. --
Clarify/add. I personally believe that there are hate-filled Nazis, skin-heads, in both the USA (ref the Southern Poverty Law Center's lists of hate groups, hate crimes in the USA http://www.splcenter.org ). And that those groups have horrible purpose when they deny the Holocaust. I think it's good that our western Euro/USAian societies try to limit those groups' influence.
Preview (should be) my friend.
I personally believe that there are hate-filled Nazis, skin-heads, in both the USA (ref the Southern Poverty Law Center's lists of hate groups, hate crimes in the USA http://www.splcenter.org ). And that those groups have horrible purpose when they deny the Holocaust. I think it's good that our western Euro/USAian societies try to limit those groups' influence.
But again, that first paragraph is incredibly and thoroughly irresponsible. It is suggestive, misleading, to the point that it denies the Holocaust and that denial of the Holocaust should not be frowned upon. That's what the paragraph conveys and it is utterly and completely dangerous. We need to call foul on this, no matter what else is said. And since it is the foundation of his argument, his entire argument becomes moot.
I am open to debate the historical steps that lead to the formation of Israel, even when I believe it is futile, but not when it starts like this.
As far as I've read into this thread (roughly half), it's the most reasonable discussion (least shrieking) I've ever seen on this subject when raised in an online forum.
I'm impressed, and glad. If we can't even talk about situations, what do we have to learn? How can we progress?
