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Something lost on many Americans is the huge debt we owe to the Dutch. The good old Pilgrims spent a number of years in Leiden before coming over to the New World, and the tolerant commercial environment in Holland at that time made a huge, huge impression on the leaders of the Separatist leaders. In a world where religious freedom was very rare, they were able not only to practise their religion but also to run businesses and raise families and organize their trips.

John Robinson was a particularly strong advocate of tolerance in the Separatist community.

by asdf on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 01:30:38 PM EST
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I was taught in American history 101 that the reason they left the Netherlands was that they found the climate too liberal and that their children adapted to Dutch liberal society too easily.

I am not arguing that is just what I was taught. I am open to other interpretations.

by amsterdam on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 02:01:31 PM EST
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Yes. I recently read about that again, and it seemed that they considered Dutch society too liberal and unclean, especially things like prostitution.
by Frank (wijsneus-aht-gmail-doht-com) on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 02:29:37 PM EST
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This is how I understood it. Because their children did not have  to battle their position in the Netherlands, there was no need to fight the Dutch,
so the Netherlands became a danger to perceived martyrdom, hence we got to get out of this place. Interesting don't you think?
by amsterdam on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 02:53:36 PM EST
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I don't think that's quite right. They did feel that their children were becoming Dutch rather than English, but they generally approved of the rest of it. There's a biography of John Robinson "The Pilgrim Way" by Robert Merrill Bartlett, (a bit old, published in 1971) that goes into this in detail.
by asdf on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 07:05:16 PM EST
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.
Plymouth: Its History and People
In the first years of the 17th century, small numbers of English Puritans broke away from the Church of England because they felt that it had not completed the work of the Reformation. They committed themselves to a life based on the Bible. Most of these Separatists were farmers, poorly educated and without social or political standing.

One of the Separatist congregations was led by William Brewster and the Rev. Richard Clifton in the village of Scrooby in Nottinghamshire. The Scrooby group emigrated to Amsterdam in 1608 to escape harassment and religious persecution. The next year they moved to Leiden, where, enjoying full religious freedom, they remained for almost 12 years.

In 1617, discouraged by economic difficulties, the pervasive Dutch influence on their children, and their inability to secure civil autonomy, the congregation voted to emigrate to America.

Fewer than half of the group's members elected to leave Leiden. A small ship, the Speedwell, carried them to Southampton, England, where they were to join another group of Separatists and pick up a second ship. After some delays and disputes, the voyagers regrouped at Plymouth aboard the 180-ton Mayflower.

It began its historic voyage on Sept. 16, 1620, with about 102 passengers--fewer than half of them from Leiden. After a 65-day journey, the Pilgrims sighted Cape Cod on November 19.

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

by Oui on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 08:36:53 PM EST
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If I remember correctly, there was a book released early this year about how Dutch governance influenced the thinking of the Founding Fathers. It particularly investigated how the governance and liberal trade of New Amsterdam (modern NYC), then in Dutch hands, affected the groundwork of the USA Constitution. Perhaps has anyone read it?

These kind of books describing Dutch heritage make me all tingly and warm inside.

by Nomad on Fri Jun 17th, 2005 at 03:36:30 AM EST
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I read most of it.. maybe it's still lying around somewhere.. (checking..).. it's called "The island at the centre of the world" by Russell Shorto.

It's a good read, although I do think the writer does seem to attach a lot of importance to one guy (van der Donck).

by Frank (wijsneus-aht-gmail-doht-com) on Fri Jun 17th, 2005 at 10:01:25 AM EST
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Just written it down.
by Nomad on Mon Jun 20th, 2005 at 03:50:12 AM EST
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