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In debate we defined "should" as ought to but not necessarily will.

Personally my love is for Eastern & Central Europe. I am actively looking for property in Poland.  The problem is, believe it or not, it is very hard to become a Polish citizen.  And they have some strict laws about non-citizens owning land.  

IMHO the new additions to the EU will be the most exciting place to live over the next 10 years.  Their economies will prosper and the standard of living will skyrocket; much like what happened in "old Europe" in the late '50s.  Just my 0,02 USD.  

by rast (deavod (at) hotmail (dot] com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:41:06 AM EST
and I'd add this:  there's a lot in it and a lot to consider, not only the physical move, but there's a whole emotional component to becoming an expat...it can at times be real hard. What languages do you speak well? If its English only, then look at the UK. If you can find a job before you go, that's best, though not absolutely necessary. And what about your family? Are they up for this? It's a different world here, and at times you will really miss your friends and familiar places. BUT...you'd be in Europe, and there's a whole openness and freshness to being here that's real nice too. Lots to do, too...
2. Hope this isn't true...

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:54:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe you are true about New Europe.  I am a Ph.D. SW engineer, varied experience, but not really a researcher.  At least, my Ph.D. thesis was essentially the solution to a purely mathematical problem, and I have completely lost interest in formal logic.  I prefer to build things that work, and that I can see work.  I would prefer to try Romania, which seems to have a very strong, nascent SW industry.  Unfortunately, my family is not very keen on the idea of learning new languages.  My wife is especially leary of Eastern Europe.  So, I think the UK is the best compromise we could work out.
by guleblanc on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 07:20:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is SW?

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 07:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry.  Sometimes I forget my audience.

SoftWare.  

by guleblanc on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 08:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now Germany is offering immigration to IT folks like you, check out the German consulate sites, that may be an easy way.
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume you're referring to the "green card" exception of 2000?

My understanding is that this has been superceded by the new immigration act as of 1 Jan 2005, which basically says that foreign professionals are welcome to seek employment if they work in a profession in which a shortage exists, i.e. do not displace any native or EU citizen. Consequently, no special rules exist any longer for individual occupational groups. source/xlation m.o.

My wife is in IT, and we know a lot of German software people who are out of work.

I don't mean to say that it is impossible (especially if you have a prospective employer in your corner), but it's not as easy as it used to be.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 12:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugh, you may be right.  I remembered that provision last year when I was looking at the marriage requirements.  I cannot find it now.  I have a feeling you are right - scratch everything I posted on it, or do deeper research.

This is also bad news for my younger brother who planned to do that if a draft was started in the US again.

Scheiße!

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 04:16:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well there's a lot of good software work being done here in Romania and getting a permit to work here is relatively easy/possible.  Becoming a citizen is next to impossible however.

Bucharest is a big modern city with anything you and your wife could ever possible want, and hordes of well-trained computer programmers looking for work.  You could do a lot worse!

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The possibility of citzenship is important, if my goal is for my sons to avoid the draft.  I suspect that by the time the soon-to-be 13-year old is close to 18, the all-draft army will be in full swing, and small countries  like Romania or Canada will have difficulty resisting US pressure to surrender US citzens for conscription.
by guleblanc on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 01:49:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well five years is a long time from now... and the draft is something pretty remote.  What is Romania or Canada or wherever going to do, deport your son?

Let me tell you a little secret about being American and living abroad - the US gov't has no idea where you live.  The only gov't who cares is the host country.  And being a permanent resident is ten thousand times easier than becoming a citizen.

If you really feel that paranoid, look at the Vienna Agreements and the mutual extradiction treaties.  I promise you nobody has ever been deported solely to obey some kind of draft requirement.  Secondly, the draft gets its list from the Social Services board and with your son being 13 I don't think he's registered yet.

You need to fly that family of yours to Europe for a while and let your wife and kids see what it's like here.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 02:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, consider Ireland.  Not sure if they are still up to it but they had the whole Celtic tiger thing before the dot com crash.  Also Dublin is a great city and travel is cheap to Europe proper vial ryan air....

The only international crime is losing a war
by Luam (uretskyj at gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Amen.  Dublin is one of the nicest cities in Europe.  I know Soj likes Romania but I doubt most Americans would.  My experience is 15 years old so things may be much better, but if your wife is nervous, better stick to W. Europe.  The pay will be much better too, but the cost of living may equalize that.

One thing re the UK.  They don't tend to pay technical people squat.  Might be better at the PHD level, but the average engineer is poorly paid vs the US, France or Germany.  In UK parlance a repairman is an "engineer" and they pay accordingly.

by HiD on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should think seriously about this.  Both my wife and I love Ireland.  I used to play a ton of Irish traditional music, though I've started playing more American fiddle tunes recently.  I'll keep this in mind.

How difficult is it to become an Irish citzen?

by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no idea.  In the UK they gave us perm residency after 4 years on a work permit.  By the time we got it, my wife was already sick of the weather and I was sick of the job stress.  So we walked away a couple of years later.

I suspect you'll have an easier time in Eire if you have Irish ancestors.  Google around.  There are good sites on Italian rules/regs so prob some on Eire as well.

by HiD on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 12:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A PhD in software engineering, backed up by experience is very welcome in the UK, particularly in the embedded industry.

To take a local example, my niece's partner has a PhD in Control Engineering from a UK university and is a senior software engineer for an embedded controls company.

The one major problem in the UK is where. Rather like in the USA, the areas with the best jobs have the highest housing costs. Buying a house in the Cambridge area for example will, for a family with a couple of kids, cost anything from £200k to £800k.

The houses are also very different to the US, with smaller plots, area and room size.

If you want to check out houses try Primelocation

Eats cheroots and leaves.

by NeutralObserver on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 12:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seriously - I would never move to UK, because they speak English. If you are going to move overseas, why not make a total adventure of it? Your kids will be able to translate for you in 3 months, I guarantee it.

I moved to Germany knowing NO German (I was already fluent in French, though). I could hold a functional conversation after 4 months. By the end of the 2nd year, I was fluent. By the end of the 3rd year, I could speak rather creatively/poetically -- not just functionally.

The caveats that Soj mentions are so true, though. Although I believe it's the second year in country that you want to kill everyone you meet. First year, everything's kinda new and exciting. By the second year, all you want is a burrito/slice/collards and you keep wishing for the relative efficiency of the Dept of Motor Vehicles. Being away from friends and especially family is really hard, though.  

By the third year -- you've made some long-term friends, you've started forgetting the English words for things ("fork" and "knife" always flummoxed me when I went back to visit the 'rents), and you start to get nervous if you're back in the States for too long.

Personally, I'd dig on moving to Eastern Europe at some point -- but right now the goal is either Shanghai, Tokyo, Hong Kong or Seoul. Because it's time to learn another language!

Just another science harpy.

by xray the enforcer (xraytheenforcer at gmx dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 06:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although one of the things I miss from when I was doing graduate research in Prague is the pizza. Way better than I can get in MI.
by emptywheel (emptywheel at earthlink dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.  I am taken by the prospect of learning languages.  For half a century I was a language disaster.  I took French in high school, and only passed when I promised my teacher I would never take French again in my life.  I took Russian in college, but it was not very successful.  But then, about 3 years ago, on a lark I took an Esperanto grammar book on a camping vacation, along with a dictionary and a translation of Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie.  I was astounded that I could actually get through most of the book by the end of the week vacation.  I'm now pretty fluent in Esperanto, and I am interested in seeing if that skill has any effect on learning a less regular, less rational language like German or French.
by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish you and your family much luck and courage either way -- and anywhere you choose as your destination!

as a tip -- if you managed to learn Esperanto, you've already mastered the hard part -- training your brain to pick out linguistic patterns. It really is a process, like writing code.

It's the compiling that's a bitch. ;-)

Just another science harpy.

by xray the enforcer (xraytheenforcer at gmx dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 10:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, let's be realistic here: you are worried about hardcore christians, and you move to Poland? You don't know what you are doing :) For a non-christian, Poland is probably one of the worst places on earth to live in. Soviet rule allowed a number of unpopular laws to pass, including legal abortion etc, but they are constantly challenged in a way much similar to the new "born-again" trend in the US. I personally know some very nice people from Poland, but if I dare say something slightly critical of any christian denomination (especially the Catholic Church) they get aggressive in a way that I never experienced in, say, "faithful" countries like Italy, Spain or Greece.
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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