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Very interesting and illuminating. It's striking how well all of us succeed in interpreting events and reports according to our world-views: what you report strikes me as very convincing evidence that there is something more than we have been told going on here, but surely those who have a different system of beliefs will see it as grasping at straws to avoid facing the "reality of Islamofascism".

I hope that accumulating evidence can produce agreement on at least "questions of fact", but even this seems unlikely.

Hannah K. O'Luthon

by Hannah K OLuthon on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 05:22:35 AM EST
Who coined the term "Islamofascism"? It's such a stupid term.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 05:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that's it's stupid, except perhaps as a way to further a "guilt by association" campaign. It must be a "neo-con-ism".

Hannah K. O'Luthon
by Hannah K OLuthon on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 07:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but surely those who have a different system of beliefs will see it as grasping at straws to avoid facing the "reality of Islamofascism".

Not necessarily.  It could very well be likely that a Muslim fanatic designed those bombs and tricked those people into setting them off...

The issue of what happened however is extremely critical.  If the four men were suicide bombers, the police need to investigate who inspired them or encouraged them to do such an extreme act.  And what did they hope to accomplish by killing themselves?

But if they were duped, it's even more perilous.  If an Al-Qaeda or other fanatic Muslim group set these men up, it means that many other integrated and non-fanatical Muslims might be targeted in a similar way.  And this means the police would have an extremely difficult time preventing these attacks since the executors are NOT fanatics.

The most sinister implication of these men being duped into being suicide bombers is that the "controlling hand" gets away to do it again.  And the "controlling hand" was the one with the agenda...

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 05:35:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think if the bombers turn out to be dupes, Al Qaeda has  hurt itself more than their declared enemy.

Who among the pool of non-suicidal sympathizers is ever going to trust them again?

BTW, are you sure there is no cell phone reception in the London Underground? Our local subway is equipped with repeaters - reception is just fine.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 06:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People can use their cell/mobile phones in Bucuresti, Romania subway system as well.

I distinctly remember hearing that people couldn't use their phones underground in London and from news articles one still can't.  Not until early 2006 anyway.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 07:16:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the nth time - there is no cell-phone reception on the underground sections of the London tube system - only on the above-ground portions of some of the older lines that run well beyond the central London area.

There have been discussions going on regarding the installation of cells to enable mobile reception - one of the arguments that has been marshalled against this is the possibility of cell-phone bomb detonation!

by londanium on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 07:44:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not aware of the subway cell phone situation in London. Thank you for clarifying.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 09:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are a few sections of line in central London where it is possible to get cell reception. These are

1)the few stations that are either open or very close to ground level. Edgware Road Circle/District/Hammersmith and City line station is one of them. Otheres where reception is possible include Earls Court, South Kensington, Barbican and Whitechapel.  

2) The sections of track open to the sky where the line was not rebuilt over when it was constructed. There is a long section going east from Kings Cross on the District/Circle line where this happens but there are small sections all along the north-eastern section of the Circle.

However, these isolated areas of reception are too unpredicatable to allow for the detonation of the two on the higher level lines and the "Kings Cross" bomb was in a deep tunnel where there are no signals.

by Londonbear on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 11:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Disadvantageous to AQ?

Using infidels, non-believing Muslims to carry the bombs is satisfactory. Through friendship, request some help on short notice, to move some holiday backpacks from Luton Town to different persons in London. All expenses paid, you can even spend some extra days by friends or family in the city. May grace of Allah be with you till eternity.
Naive? Perhaps, that's how scams work, gain trust of individuals and use them.

The mastermind looked for a group of acquaintances, loose ties and perhaps at university level someone with knowledge of chemistry to create cover for use of TATP explosives. Leave behind some trace of acetone and peroxide in the bathtub isn't too sophisticated. These components are present in most households, not in the explosive compound, but some specimen spilled in the home is not difficult.

Even by most burglaries in The Netherlands, thieves make sure to spread some DNA material from third parties in the area to foil the investigation.

In the press conference of the London Metropolitan Police it was erroneous to put blame on Al Qaeda based on the compound TATP, as it is a household substance any terrorist could use. Besides a terrorist mastermind, a mastermind from any nationality could have used a double-cross to have patsies travel with backpacks through the London Subway, the easiest and quickest journey in the city.

London Underground (LU) is planning to install technology that will give commuters mobile phone coverage in the concourse, ticketing areas and platforms of underground Tube stations - but not on trains rumbling through underground tunnels.

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

by Oui on Mon Jul 18th, 2005 at 07:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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