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Ok. Some here have titled me a kook, but, in all fairness: who gains anything from murdering common english folks ?

  • Muslims or those who need a justification to attack them ? Would any putative "Al-Qaeda" or Iraqi resistence sound of mind attack common british folks, knowing that a significant majority were, and are, against the war of terror ? Would it not serve their interests better if they tried to do something against those in a position of power and who subscribe to the "GWOT" ?

  • In the position of phony Tony and dumb Dubya who see their project desintegrate for lack of popular support, would it not be tempting to have the plebeyans rally around your cause ?

  • In the position of "Islamists" who see their countries re-colonized by the West, would it not be f*cking stupid to give not only the english and other western plebeyans and also the G8 fags a reason to send even more troops to your countries and make the life of whatever muslims in the west miserable ?

  • Who has the RESOURCES and the CAPABILITY to plant multiple bombs in London, one of the most surveilled cities in the world ? Some putative "islamists" or secret service and special forces operatives of western govts ?

  • How many people were arrested AND sent to jail for their participation in 9/11 ?

  • How many people were arrested AND sent to jail for the Madrid attentate ? It strikes me as "convenient" that the putative terrorists were all killed by the Sspanish Guardia Civil when they found them.

  • Was it not weird that the Spanish Govt first adjudicated that attentate to ETA and then to Al-Qaeda, based obviously on their calculation of what would be better for their purposes ?

  • Some franchise partners of "Al-Qaeda" have supposedly published a note taking responsibility for todays bombings in London at a "known islamist website". How do they do this ? Fact is that there is no anonymity on the Internet, that anything can be traced back to either a physical place or a person or organisation.

  • Why would ANY server owner risk jail or worse for publishing the rants of some terrorist group ? I know quite a few websites around Iraq, Palestine and Chechnya, but i've never seen any website claiming affiliation with "Al-Qaeda" (a disclaimer here: I don't know Arabic).

  • Also: which "known Islamist website" and its owner(s) would be left standing by any govt, knowing what befell Indymedia and some smaller lefty websites for far less than publishing terrorist manifestos ?

  • Why do the MSM always seem to know these misterious websites but never tell their name ? Has anybody outside the MSM and govt circles EVER managed to find the original websites where these manifests are published ? Please post here if you know one.

In this spirit, what will come out about the London bombings during the next few days from private investigators not affiliated with the British Govt or mainstream media ? Since Sirocco and some others are accusing me of paranoia and kookery, I'd like to invite you all to try and answer some of these questions without coming to some of the same disquieting conclusions I've arrived at.

The Romans of old, who knew something about politics, used to say "Cui prodest scelus, is fecit".

by name (name@spammez_moi_sivouplait.org) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 12:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would any putative "Al-Qaeda" or Iraqi resistence sound of mind attack common british folks, knowing that a significant majority were, and are, against the war of terror ? Would it not serve their interests better if they tried to do something against those in a position of power and who subscribe to the "GWOT"?

First of all, those in a position of power are genuinely hard to get at. Second, even if you, say, successfully assassiated Bush, that wouldn't necessarily alter policy. All you would get is President Cheney with a licence to kill.

As to why the revolutionary movement we call al-Qaeda would conduct terrorism against Western civilians: Well, that isn't very hard to explain. The long-term objective of this movement is to overthrow the regimes of the Middle East and North Africa and create a vast political unit modeled on the early Islamic caliphate. To achieve this they must accomplish two preliminary goals:

  1. Make Western countries, especially but not only the US, terminate their military presence in, arm sales and technological assistance to, bankrolling of, and in some cases, mere tolerance of, said regimes. This has been accomplished to a fair degree. The US is pulling its troops out of Saudi Arabia, has eliminated Saddam Hussein's secular regime, and has introduced sanctions against Syria. (Though OTOH, Egypt remains prime beneficiary of US 'aid' after Israel.)

  2. Make Western countries, especially but not only the US, lash out against the Muslim heartland in a way that i) fosters hate among Muslims against the West and its perceived ME puppets; and (ii) destabilises the region, seeding chaos which the revolutionaries can exploit to create failed states and seize power there. This has so far succeeded beyond any reasonable expectation, thanks to the mix of strategic ineptness and greed marking US policymakers and their European lackeys.

Who has the RESOURCES and the CAPABILITY to plant multiple bombs in London, one of the most surveilled cities in the world ? Some putative "islamists" or secret service and special forces operatives of western govts ?

Answer: Well-organized terrorists and noone else have such resources and capability. 'Secret service and special forces operatives of western govts' plainly do not, simply because a) these agencies are largely staffed by professionals dedicated to public service, as opposed to evil, soulless tools who would willingly carry out orders to massacre their fellow citizens for the transient political gain of their civilian bosses; b) even if they weren't, it would be impossible to keep such a devilish conspiracy secret even in one country, let alone in three.

By the way, why expressions like "putative 'al-Qaeda'" and "putatuve 'Islamists'"? Do you doubt, or deny, that these phenomena exist?

How many people were arrested AND sent to jail for the Madrid attentate ? It strikes me as "convenient" that the putative terrorists were all killed by the Sspanish Guardia Civil when they found them.

That they wouldn't allow themselves to be taken alive is to be expected from people who crave 'martyrdom' over any earthly reward, not to mention life in jail.

Was it not weird that the Spanish Govt first adjudicated that attentate to ETA and then to Al-Qaeda, based obviously on their calculation of what would be better for their purposes ?

Not particularly. Just disgusting.

OK, that's all I have time for right now. Maybe someone else can reply to your concerns about the Internet.

And yes, I am indeed accusing you of paranoia and kookery. You're right about that much.

By the way, I'm sure the gays among us would appreciate if you laid off such slurs as 'fags,' as in "G8 fags." But that is up to you.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 01:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a) these agencies are largely staffed by professionals dedicated to public service, as opposed to evil, soulless tools who would willingly carry out orders to massacre their fellow citizens for the transient political gain of their civilian bosses;

Now I fully agree with the rest, but I think the above is rather naive. Those not dedicated to public service seem to dominate nowadays anyway, "evil, soulless tool" seems to be a perfect definition for intelligence agents participating in dirty wars to me, and history does have plenty of examples for willingly carrying out orders to massacre fellow citizens for the transient political gain of their civilian bosses. (For example, read up on SISMI, Gladio, and the Bologna railway station bombing.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it seems to me deeply implausible that a majority of CIA or Delta officers, say, would take part in mass terrorism against innocent civilian compatriots such as on 9/11. For most of them it is squarely opposed to their training and basic ethos. I am prepared to assume that a tiny minority might agree to do so if exceedingly well compensated (which obviously rules out suicide missions, a decisive point in itself); but this minority would be seriously hard to identify among the vast majority of their colleagues, who would in any case oppose them to the best of their capability.

If you disagree with this, then I guess we differ as to what is a realistic assessment of the situation.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 02:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps Jeffersonian Democrat would care to chip in about this? Given his background I'd give great weight to his evaluation, on whichever side it comes down.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 02:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I refer back to SISMI and Gladio. I think the same nice words could be said of the majority of Italian intelligence agents, yet the really bad found each other - or some who were at top positions picked out the right ones.

The rest can hardly oppose them if they act clandestinely. I don't see how suicide missions come into the picture - the conspiracy theorists don't claim Atta & co were CIA agents.

Then again, I emphasize again, I don't believe for a moment that 9/11 specifically was an inside job. I am confronting your general argument here about intelligence.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supplement: upon re-reading, perhaps I should make clear,  this line of mine:

Those not dedicated to public service seem to dominate nowadays anyway, "evil, soulless tool" seems to be a perfect definition for intelligence agents participating in dirty wars to me, and history does have plenty of examples for willingly carrying out orders to massacre fellow citizens

..is three separate counter-claims, regarding three non-indentical small minority subsets of intelligence agents. The first is the largest, it includes those in the MI6 going along with sexing up dossiers in the hierarchy. The second are obviously intel foot-soldiers working mostly abroad.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, at least we agree that only a tiny minority in the secret services/special forces would contemplate taking part in such domestic black ops.

My claim was just that "these agencies are largely staffed by professionals dedicated to public service," by which I meant to imply that given the massive scale of an operation such as 9/11, it would be hard to recruit enough traitors to pull it off.

About the Bologna station bombing I don't know much, so if it has been proven that SIGNI - as opposed to a few fascists in the stay-behind network GLADO - were part of this, I was unaware of that.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As for the first bunch of questions: for Sunni Islamist extremists, Western culture and mixing with Western culture is an explicitely declared danger to Islam. Hence, a reaction hitting Muslims in Britain is a result beneficial for their intent to cut off. (Plus, it is further propaganda boon.) They won't value an anti-war population for much until the war continues - and they could either think that they can impress this population with a terror attack to force withdrawal (if they misinterpret events in Madrid like Americans did) or hold it complicit [one of Bin Laden's early speeches at least was explicit about this] and 'punish' it. Overall, I note: that the Binladenists exploit genuine grievances of Muslims in recruiting, and those even make part of their motivations, doesn't mean that ending the unjustice of occupaton by the West is their ultimate goal.

As for the second, yep, but what does that prove? See also what I wrote in another comment regarding their Iraq war propaganda.

As for the third, in part see what I wrote for the first; and given that the USA & allies are at this point clearly defeated in Iraq & Afghanistan, sending more troops would hasten the process.

The fourth is strongly tin-foil hat. I only respond with two general points: one, the total surveillance police state is not meant to protect you. Two, I think to believe that to defeat anything Western is an exceptional feat is a form of indirect and unconscious chauvinism. We aren't that superior, not at all.

As for the 9/11 jailed, I believe three, or if we include those held in the US gulag system, half a dozen. The rest died in the attacks.

The next is hyper-tin-foil-hat and simply wrong. The firefight wasn't started by the Guardia Civil, nor was the bomb set off by them. And anayway, Aznar was out by that time, so you have a really really big conspiracy in your theory here.

As for ETA than al-Qaida, that was not at all weird, but typical of the lying bastard Aznar, who even wanted election advantage from a terror attack. But he lost when exposed. Now, the only thing I don't understand how this fits into your conspiracy theory.

As for anything traced back, no, it can't. If you sit down in a run-down internet bar somewhere in Karachi, you can very well post anonymously, and a few tricks are enough to significantly delay the time until even the internet bar is tracked down.

As for the next, indeed, you don't know Arabic.

As for the next: they are not in the West, and sites can be changed frequently if they are closed down.

As for the last, since I don't know Arabic either, your request is impossible to fulfill. I guess you should ask around some blogs by Arabic-speakers. (And don't expect the MSM to allow itself be accused of giving bandwidth to extremists by linking to such a site.)

You should know, even with the general argument I made with Iraq in that other comment, I'm not one dismissing conspiracy theories out of hand. Specifically about 9/11, I have checked many of the claims circling around (in the first few months still with the suspicion that they might be real clues). But most turned out to ignore something, quote out of context, or be the result of lack of technical knowledge. (The two latest for me were the Kevin Ryan email casting doubt on the temperature of WTC fires, and the allegedly too small engine wreckage found in the Pentagon - I post the details of what I found if you're interested.) Some of the rest expose misconduct, but one far short for the alleged conspiracy (for example the delays in engine scrambling, or the alleged hijackers found alive stories).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 01:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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