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Heh, by accident, my grandfather was like that too.

But foreign languages were his hobby. He would study his languages in a weekly schedule, three languages each day,  one of these a language studied only every two weeks - i.e., 28 languages in total! But he spoke well only seven, IIRC German, French, English, Italian, Russian, Spanish and Latin.

Myself, I speak Hungarian, German and English fluently (and would write in English much better - would I check for typos and would I not forget stuff when I constantly re-draft sentences in the middle of writing...), can read French, write and speak less well (currently re-learning); and used to know Russian but forgot almost completely.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 07:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Living in Transylvania as I do, there are sure times when I had your language abilities here.  I think Magyar is one of those languages you just need to be born into, whew it just blows my mind! :)

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 08:27:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that may be because Hungarian is not Indo-European.

Or, maybe there is more to it? At least anecdotically, I know that Chinese immigrants (my hometown Budapest is their European center; this will be a theme of an upcoming post of mine) find learning Hungarian is a lot harder than English or German - and for them, both Indo-European and Finno-Ugrian is totally alien.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 08:35:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is definitely because it's not Indo-European.  Its syntax and grammar and roots are just so different than it makes it extremely difficult to assimilate.  So I just memorize a few phrases like "thank you" and leave it at that ;)

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 11:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone who knows Hungarian has my admiration!  

Unlike the Germanic, Romance, Scandinavian or Slavic languages, there is just nothing else like it!  (Except Basque, right?)  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 12:23:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's related to Finnish and Estonian, also in the Finno-Ugric family of Uralian languages, and more distantly, to Samoyed Uralian languages like Sami.

Basque, mysteriously, has no close relative at all.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 12:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the Library of Congress classifies Basque with Hungarian & Samoyedic in the Ugric section of the Uralic (Finno-Ugric) family of languages.  Could be because they didn't know what else to do with it though...  Or they could even be wrong.  Who knows?  

You're absolutely right about the relation to Finnish, etc.  But I still maintain that Hungarian is not like anything else. :)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 01:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
one of my best stories about basque is from a friend who worked at the French Embassy in Moscow in Soviet times. He wa speaking in basque to his family back in France when a voice came on line and said "KGB, please use a language we can understand"

(the KGB was renowned for its linguistic expertise)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 01:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Most famous Dutch violinist received education in Moscow and played in many concerts. What no one knew when she traveled from Moscow to the West, het violin case became a secure place to keep some manuscripts.

The KGB had no idea how Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn had his manuscript published in the West - The Gulag Archipelago!


The world community is indebted to our musician - thanks Emmy.

Bruch: Violinconcert no.1 in g kl.t. op.26
Beethoven:  Symphony no.5 in c kl.t. op.67
Orchestra: Beethoven Academy olv. Jan Caeyers - Emmy Verhey, violin
Recording: 22 september 1996
broadband ●  smallband Windows Media

Paste complete URL {} in address for broadband connection:
{ javascript:var%20w=window.open('http://www.avroklassiek.nl/avplayer.aspx?streamurl=mms://media.omroep.nl/avro/klassiek/zoc/zoc_03061 1_bb.wma','avplayer','width=500,height=440'); }

~~~

by Oui on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 03:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, the KGB...

There is an anecdote about Enrico Fermi, the Italian nuclear physicist who also worked on the Manhattan Project. When asked about whether he believes in Martians, he answered: "Heh, of course, they are already here! They call themselves 'Hungarians'!"

Unfortunately, to understand the joke, I have to explain that during the Manhattan Project, Fermi was usually sitting at a table with five other European emigree scientists, all of them Hungarian (and most Jewish), who would often change from English into Hungarian during their debates, leaving Fermi to sit stupified.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 16th, 2005 at 06:14:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Linguists don't agree on Basque's relations or origins; conventional wisdom considers it an isolate, meaning there are no known related languages, living or dead. I believe some have attempted to argue for the Finno-Ugric connection on the basis of some lexical similarities, but the evidence is not compelling enough for wider acceptance.

My favorite explanation of Basque's origins comes from my Basque friend who claims that Basques came from Atlantis. :-)

I'm in the process of adding Basque to my list of languages (joining English, Spanish, French, and smatterings of German and Swedish) though at this point I find Basque so complicated that it's hard to imagine getting much beyond the level of basic phrases!

by wheylona on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 06:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My favorite explanation of Basque's origins comes from my Basque friend who claims that Basques came from Atlantis. :-)

I have my own, less flattering pet theory: They are the descendants of Neanderthals, who perished on the Iberian peninsula some 30 000 years ago... ;-)

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Mon Aug 15th, 2005 at 07:10:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My favorite explanation of Basque's origins comes from my Basque friend who claims that Basques came from Atlantis. :-)

Aye... Southeastern Europe has a lot of these (and the fools who believe it are often rabid chauvinist politicians, so it is less funny).

For example, in Hungary there is 'theory' that Sumerians were Hungarians...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 16th, 2005 at 06:16:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The LoC must have classified as such exclusively because both aren't Indo-European - as far as I know, there is nothing similar between the two.

Hungarian is maybe more special than other Finno-Ugrian languages because it is separated from even its closest relatives (spoken by two small ethnics which get assimilated by Russians).

However, don't take language families that seriously; there is enough 'cross-pollination' and mixing to make the 'tracking back' of languages unreasonable beyond some length of time. For example, Hungarian borrowed heavily from (or, was born as a mixture of a Finno-Ugric and:) Turkic languages, Slavic languages, Latin, and German languages (in this order of time); and many words were newly created from old or made-up roots by the language reform movement 200 years ago.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 16th, 2005 at 06:06:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are amazing indications of how old Basque is. My favorite is that the root of the word "axe" is the same as "stone" ("ark" if I remember right)... fascinating.
by gongo on Tue Aug 16th, 2005 at 09:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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