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While I am firmly pro-choice, I am not sure that from the fact that a being cannot feel pain or have experiences or even interests, it follows that it is ethical to kill that being.

Well, like I said there are other arguments for outlawing abortion, notably that 'human life has intrinsic value' whether or not it has rights. So the argument above is insufficient by itself to justify a pro-choice position. But it's absolutely necessary. Indeed, if not for it I'm not sure I would be pro-choice in the first place.

But it is a philosophical argument.  And half the people in this debate frankly are not swayed by philosophy.  Much in the same way that I am not swayed by the Bible.

Philosophical argument is what I do, though not so much here on ET (philosophy is no spectator sport). Such argument may or may not make for good propaganda, but that, to me, is a side concern.

since we are here at ET, what's the scene in Europe?  I keep hearing the Pro-Lifers are gaining support there.  True?  Is this just a Catholic thing or is it more mainstream?

I can only speak for Scandinavia, where pro-lifers have given up long ago with respect to swaying the mainstream. The demographic in question seem much more  preoccupied with writing LTEs about Israel.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 01:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps, and I am just speculating, the fact that you are in Scandinavia where pro-lifers have given up long ago with respect to swaying the mainstream affords you the luxury to discuss this topic philosophically?  Whereas in America the pro-lifers are in the process of attempting a coup on our government and therefore everyone, on both sides, is more concerned about winning in the court of public opinion, and er, in the Supreme Court, than ruminating on the essence of being or concerning themselves with proper reason and logic.

And even if they were, in order to have a philosophical debate on the subject, those participating should be versed familiar with the basic rules of the game, which they are not.  At some point, the statement "Cuz that's what I believe," came to pass as a valid proof here in America.  

I'm just saying that while your argument might be spot on, and I am inclined to think it is, I don't see it being an effective tool for protecting American women's rights from being steamrolled by the Christian Right.  That's all.  It seems that the most vocal on both sides have given up on tring to win "hearts and minds" and are just going for the hearts now...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 02:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I never claimed it to be 'an effective tool,' and I'm speaking in the abstract, not about the US specifically.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 02:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know.

Appologies all around.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 03:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No reason to! Sorry if I sounded a bit grumpy. Having trouble with morons on another site. :-)

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 03:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aahhh....  Thought I sensed something.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 03:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here you go...known to soothe those beastly grumpies :)

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by caldonia on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 04:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Merlot, my favorite. You're the best!

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 04:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm giving you a pain in the arse.
by BooMan on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 05:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, that's OK. I love the sport.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Aug 24th, 2005 at 05:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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