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Can you believe it!

Secretary of Energy Samuel W. Bodman said to release strategic petroleum reserves (SPR) within days at the request of oil corporations. He also mentioned both crucial pipelines are down because pumps do not work due to power outage. I can't imagine strategic oil pipelines dependent on electrical power and not self-generating diesel units.

Shame on USA - lack of refineries and preparation for natural disaster.

~~~

by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 08:12:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Generators or electric, it doesn't matter. It's all under water, so what's the difference?

The truly scary thing is that the levees that were designed to keep water out are keeping water in and that the pumps are off the grid now, which means no one really knows how they'll get the water out once the levees are secured. In other words, you can't get the water out unless you have power sent to the pumps, and you can't start the pumps unless the water is out. Catch-22.

I find this diary a bit over the top. The storm has taken an enormous human toll, much worse than was initially feared, but economically they'll be OK. Let's not talk about $$$ just yet people. There are men and women and children dying. If you do want to talk about money then perhaps take comfort in the fact that the initial surveys of the gulf rigs found very little damage so they are very optimistic. As for the City of New Orleans, it is not dead forever. They will come back to it and rebuild it as we knew it. They will not abandon it. Hopefully they will learn from their mistakes by banning develop in the Delta and allowing the river to flood the plain so that sediment is dropped and marshland can develop.

by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
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Flood pumps in New Orleans are not working because installation is inundated.

The pipeline transport pumps are not working because the electric grid is down, thus it is common practise in European strategic facilities to be self-sufficient with diesel generators, just like hospitals should be able to operate for days in case of national disaster.

Homeland Security starts at home :: not in Iraq!

Take some lessons from the Dutch who have survived centuries below sea level, and know how to build levees, dikes and keep the polders dry!

~~~

by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:35:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure you're getting the state of the disaster. They HAD generators. That's why people were holed up in New Orleans during the storm. The problem is, almost 90% of the city is under water, some of it in under 20 feet of water. There is no generator that can withstand that and provide power. In fact, it would be very dangerous to do so under those conditions. What are they doing in New Orleans? They are actually taking everything off the grid for fear of gas explosions and the like. The first thing they have to do is buffer the levees. Then they have to pump the water out. This will take weeks and months. Then we can start talking about clean water (the most important need), then electricity and gas.

Consider, the Superdome is a world-class facility built with modern technology to withstand a category 5 hurricane and to become a fortress even against an immense flood. It's generators are holding out for three days now, but the recent reports are that they are being compromised.

I have to say, this has turned into a rather nasty blame-game thread. As Americans, I know we have to take it, but really let up a bit until the criticism is wholly deserved.

by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They HAD generators. That's why people were holed up in New Orleans during the storm.

Oui means generators for the pumps and hospitals, not ordinary citizens in their homes. Those could be built weather-resistant (for example, putting them underground: no wind damage). The 20-feet water is 20 feet because pumps aren't working.

I have to say, this has turned into a rather nasty blame-game thread.

Why do you insist on merging all Americans into a single mass (unlike most of those you find offending), and why do you only see "blame" instead of "this and this could be fixed"?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:59:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the criticism comes without a command of the facts.

I mean, pumps without generators/ Hospitals without generators? The Superdome, for instance, is a world class facility built to withstand a cat5 hurricane. It is starting to fail, and so are the generators. The water is rising inside the dome itself.

I can't understand why people would apportion blame when they don't have the facts.

by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Superdome also depends on the city's pumps supposed to maintain the city during a levee breach. "Built to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane" is more about wind.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:31:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Superdome has its own generators. It was built to withstand a huge flood, not the solely the effects of the wind. As I said, it's generators are failing.

The city's pumps were not built to withstand a leveee breach. This is the main problem. Once water gets inside the levees, then the levees become your biggest enemies. The levees keep the water in and prevent the pumps from working. The fact is, the only way to keep the city safe in to prevent a lot of water from getting in. The city's pumps work well with a normal flood when a levee hasn't been breached.

by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:36:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
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Sure - I'll hold back some criticism, don't make the disaster political. Same argument I heard from London after the bomb attacks on 7/7 and 24/7. Also after the killing of Juan Charles de Menezes, don't jump to conclusions.

So I must appreciate your take, all previous "no-bid and no-performance" state and federal contracts, left the city of New Orleans with flood pumps that work under ideal environmental conditions :: sunny and dry weather with wind speed below limits of 50 mph. Give me a break! You're just being a prick.


Keeping the polders dry - under all circumstances

Levees that do not have emergency guarding, nor direct action by the engineers corps when there is a chance of a break inundating New Orleans, making the disaster complete. National Guard units operating in Iraq, left Homeland Security to no one.

~~~

by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That qualifies for the level of discourse I typically expect from you.
by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:43:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
people can disagree, can have honest disagreements...or even misunderstandings...but resorting to name calling isn't cool. This isn't personal, even though people have strong personal feelings. Name calling is non-productive...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:16:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep. Tough I disagree with Upstate's criticism, with such responses too. Oui, please, could we just have your technical arguments?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 12:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
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A statement of fact - see BooMan's mission: "Don't be a prick".

This isn't the first time he/she qualifies for such a determination.

Let Upstate NY just mind his/her own posts and don't comment anymore on mine - he/she is relentless until the last word. That is IMHO a qualification of a prick, or worse a troll. He/she discourages a normal discussion or debate.

I just about had it here.

~~~

by Oui on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, what remains to be said - you should have minded your own advice and not have posted the above, or the previous.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 01:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you call people fascists and then blame it on their religion, don't expect sympathy.
by Upstate NY on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 03:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now to counterpoint my argument with UpstateNY and US Blues: you should have made clear that this criticism is aimed at authorities and lawmakers, and is not an example of schadenfreude.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:46:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometime, even in the Netherlands, it's not working: see the 1953 catastrophic flooding, more than 1800 deads.
by Hansvon on Wed Aug 31st, 2005 at 05:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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