Display:
minor historical correction. Germany lost one quarter of its territory, not one third.  Also a disproportionate number of those refugees ended up in the DDR not the BRD, understandable considering East Germany was right next door to most of the Vertreibungsgebiete. The number of expellees in West Germany in 1945 is much lower than your quoted figure of 12 million. In early 1947 the authorities counted some 6.25 million expellees. By 1950 it had gone up to 7.83 million reflecting a combination of the last trickle of expellees from Poland, the migration of some expellees from the DDR to the BRD, and natural population growth - German statistics counted children (and later grandchildren) of expellees as expellees. That only changed after reunification. These figures do not include 'native' refugees (Fluechtlinge) from the DDR .   Yeah, quibbling but it's my diss topic, I get touchy :)

But its a  really great diary even if I'm not particularly supportive of your choice of political parties. (I dislike the PDS for its past and Lafontaine for his playing for the extreme right vote in the present)

by MarekNYC on Sun Aug 7th, 2005 at 08:08:50 PM EST
Good points with those numbers; I'll add that the 10 million immigrants number is incorrect too, the percentage of resident Ausländer is now stable at 7.35 million and would be reduced significantly with citizenship reform ("immigrants" born in Germany...)

Marek, you wrote elsewhere that the expellee issue is actually your work, so I feel confident to quibble for some more details:

One, do you have a number for expellees in East Germany?

Two, could have been there a large number of expellees who weren't in official statistics, say because they found a new home with relatives and didn't register for state help, or moved on to another country (I guess primarily the USA)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, just found a newer number (my previous one was for ewnd-of-2003, this one is end-of-2004): resident foreigners in Germany are down to 6.72 million.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To this number you have to add the more 2.4 million immigrants from the former USSR who got German citizenship and who represent a big and yet unsolved integration problem. This is why I wrote "migrants" and not foreigners.
by jandsm on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
this number refers to immegration from the former communist countries since 1990.
by jandsm on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On one hand, I think that number is similar to the number of integrated non-citizens - or less. On the other hand, I suspect those 2.4 million aren't all non-integrated, either. (Note tough, this all may be quibbling about numbers - while it may be a third to a half of what you wrote, I don't deny that there is a problem.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:44:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo, I don't happen to have the figures for the DDR offhand (I deliberately excluded them from my Diss to keep the already over large topic manageable - it also includes the Polish settlers, I'm concentrating on expellees from and settlers in Lower Silesia through 1970) but I believe it is about 4 mill. As to unofficial ones - no. Some did move on to other countries but the numbers are small and they were kept track of. I can look them up if you want.  The story of the expellees in the DDR has recently been the topic of various studies, I can give you references if you want. Initially the KPD had the same position on the borders as all other German parties but was quickly forced to change its tune by the Soviets, something which contributed to its loss of any significant popular support in the West even before it was made illegal.
by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 01:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right of course:I wasn't precise. Of originally 14 million people moving westward, 12.5 million arrived in west and east Germany combined, plus 400.000 who went to Austria and other countries. Of these 12.5, 8.1 million arrived in the West (this number is of 1950).

Their distribution though was disproportionate: More people moved naturally to the rural and the Eastern parts, because these area were closer and less destroyed than the cities. I am from Lower Saxony where migration from Silesia was highly significant.

To this number I believe one has to as the refugees from the GDR which was at 2.7 million until 1961. Additionally, 1.4 million ethnic Germans migrated from the USSR into the FRG between 1951 and 1990.

Sources: [link] and [link]

by jandsm on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:49:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 1.4 million figure of 'Spaetaussiedler' is not from the USSR but from the East Bloc. Primarily from Poland and to a lesser extent from Romania. In the case of Poland it mainly concerned people who the Polish authorities had categorized as ethnically Polish in Upper Silesia and the former East Prussia. Their actual ethnic identity was a lot more complicated than that.  In addition at the very end of that period plenty of full blown Poles wrangled their way into Germany using their residency in Upper Silesia as their ticket to the West. There is currently a German minority of several hundred thousand in Poland, mostly in the Opole province (Western Upper Silesia). I'm not sure why the discrepancy between my 7.83 mill and your source's 8.1 mill. Mine is drawn from BMV figures.  You should also note that while those Vertriebene who fled in the closing months of the war ended up wherever they found refuge, the expellees proper were deposited according to the rules set by the occupying powers (minus the French who refused to accept any).  In any case in the Western Zones the main area for expellees from what had become Poland was Schleswig Holstein and Lower Saxony (your province). Sudeten Germans gravitated to Bavaria.

In the early fifties the federal government strongly encouraged a better distribution of refugees and that combined with the pull of the Wirtschaftswunder created a large expellee population elsewhere, particularly NRW. They integrated quite quickly but remained at a socio-economic disadvantage to the 'natives' (einheimische) for quite some time and that disadvantage lived on in the next generation.

In political terms the expellees were and explosive group, subject of fears that they would turn radical left, or more likely radical right. When they were allowed to organize themselves politically in the early fifties they formed their own party the BHE which initially did quite well. It faded  partly quickly because it accomplished some of its goals in the form of a massive compensation program, and because of the CDU's skill in gobbling up/destroying all other right wing parties. The BHE's leaders were a pretty nasty bunch,led by the long time Minister for Expellees, old guard Nazi, and war criminal Theodor Oberlaender (who was actually quite a competent minister).  

Germany's policy towards them was contradictory, on the one hand seeking to integrate them socio-economically, preventing them from settling as coherent groups made up of former neighbours, and on the other hand pumping huge amounts of money into preserving their identity as Silesians, East Prussians, etc. so they would be ready to go back when the 1937 borders were restored.

In political terms they then were spread out across the spectrum until they started to turn sharply towards the CDU/CSU in the mid sixties as the SPD began to gingerly edge away from the hardline national consensus on the border issue, culminating in the de facto (but not de jure) recognition of the Oder-Neisse line by Brandt in 1970. They then became a key part of the CDU's base leading to the kind of absurdities like Kohl's reluctance to formally recognize the border in 1990.
Anyways, I think I ran on a bit too much, as I sometimes do on this topic.

by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 01:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you seem to be one of the few who actually know something about it and it is great to read.

has your ph.d. been published? if yes, it would be great if you could send me the publishing information via email.

thanks.

by jandsm on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 05:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. Unfortunately it's not finished. The draft is done and I'm now rewriting it with a department set deadline of the end of the year for my defense. Then I'll get to worry about how to get a publisher willing to publish it in yet another rewritten version. The market for highly specialized academic first books being what it is I'm not looking forward to that. But I'd be happy to give you some refs on what is out there if you're really interested. I'm not the only person who noticed in the late nineties that there was this glaring hole in the historiography of the Bundesrepublik.  My topic focuses on how the expellees from Lower Silesia sought to maintain their local identities once in West Germany and on how the Polish settlers in Wroclaw/Breslau sought to create one of their own, the interaction between the two processes and the similiarities of government/social/academic action in these two very different socio-political systems. (I couldn't focus on expellees from Breslau only due to the nature of the archival sources)
by MarekNYC on Tue Aug 9th, 2005 at 12:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks for your insights, it's really fascinating.

And good luck with your thesis publication. My chances of being published were shot down because I got caught in a fight between two "churches" (ideological factions) in a long running economic debate, and one of the professors in my jury felt that I leaned too much to the other side (no matter that the other side thought the same) and, as he was the editor of the relevant collection where my thesis could have been published, he killed it (and also prevented me from receiving the unanimous "félicitations du jury").

So my PhD was only ever read by a dozen people. As I had decided to leave academia (too much petty infighting), it did not bother me too much, but it's a pity. I'm quite proud of what I wrote!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 9th, 2005 at 06:29:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
Occasional Series