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Actually the most interesting news [i]right now [/i]is that Prodi has endorsed civil unions for non-married couples, which presumably would include homosexuals.

WOWWWW!! In the POPE'S ITALY, for Christ's sake!! I think he's gone off his rocker now. He's being slammed ferociously by the "center" part of the center-left. It looks like possible political suicide, folks.

Here's the url=
artcile in Italian [/url]

He's being called a "Zapatero" (synonymous with radical for the center and right, synonymous with Satan for the Vatican and its cronies).

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Sep 12th, 2005 at 09:27:06 AM EST
Since in this year's regional elections, it happened that a provincial leader was elected

  • in a Southern province,
  • despite being gay
  • and communist,

I don't think it has to be political suicide. But it could be, if Prodi flip-flops.

The problem with Prodi during his previous PM-ship that made the bed for the insane right was lack of courage. Maybe he realised that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 13th, 2005 at 09:05:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if you've been reading today's news or wathcing the extaordimary bashing he's getting from the fundamentalist Catholic "Center" (right and left), you might reconsider.

No, I don't think it is neccessarily poltical suicide. but he is taking a hammering for it. And the Vatican still controls an absoluetly enormous number of votes in this quasi-theocracy of the old Christian Demos.

I diagree with the view that Prodi lost power in 1998 becuase of he was not "courageous", however. He had to hold together an impossible coalition with parties and partitinies ranging from the fundamendalist Catholics of Mastella and to the unreconstructed Stalinists of Rifondazione and PCI. These latter were the Achilles heel of the coalition and they stopped at nothing to get what they wanted by thretenting to leave of they didnìt get it. Prodi refused and the coalition collapsed.

The solution to this problem of using the electoral system as a means of extortion is to finish the job of eliminating the last vestiges of proportional representaion and move more decively to a truly bipolar, and eventually, two-party system, IMO.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Tue Sep 13th, 2005 at 11:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
extaordimary bashing he's getting from the fundamentalist Catholic "Center"

You always get bashing from some quarters - for Prodi, earlier it was Rifondazione. Vendola in Puglia, and the moderate leftist leaders daring to name him candidate, also received lots of bashing. Moreover, I'm not sure the catholic ultra-right's media presence and politicians convert to that much followers among voters. (I have my doubts even for voters of Christian centrist parties that all of them would follow the party line on this.) Do you have some polling data on this?

the Vatican still controls an absoluetly enormous number of votes

How much of that on the left? How much of that is blind followers who'd vote for the Right if called on?

I diagree with the view that Prodi lost power in 1998 becuase of he was not "courageous", however.

We will disagree on what Prodi should have done with those demands (at least part of which were in the coalition charter if I recall correctly), and the demands of the business community, i.e., I think he should have dared a more leftist economic policy rather than the usual 'reforms'. But, when I wrote of lack of courage, I was more thinking of such omissions as the lack of a new media ownership law - omissions he shared with his successor d'Alema, which allowed Berlusconi to regain his semi-dictatoral powers. I.e., I was more thinking of how the insane Right could return, rather than his personal fall from power. (He also received similar criticism of indecisiveness for his tenure as EU Commission President, however, as the Council calls the shots here I don't blame him much.)

The solution to this problem of using the electoral system as a means of extortion is to finish the job of eliminating the last vestiges of proportional representaion and move more decively to a truly bipolar, and eventually, two-party system, IMO.

I fear that's a double-edged sword all in itself, and won't deliver the benefit you expect from it.

I recognise the need to bust the old Partitocracy and system of blackmail, which the mixed system was supposed to achieve. But, blackmail works in a two-party system, too: just this time, within one of the parties; what have been power-wrestling coalition partners are now power-wrestling party wings. Witness the US Democratic party for self-destruction from the centrists, and witness the US Republican party for executing the agenda of the extremist minority.

Furthermore, I deeply resent a two-party system. First, I think it limits democracy: it limits the opinions that get an unblended representation. (As much as you dislike RC and PCI, as much as I dislike Fini's postfascists, there are a lot of people who share those parties' views.) Party wings don't offer that much diversity of opinion (as opposed to power groups), while their power balance within the party has not much to do with relative support in public opinion. Second, the two parties limit public discourse - if the just two parties agree on something, it will be very difficult to advance or even get a forum for an opposing policy (see the USA again). Third, if just two parties get entrenched, they can turn even more corrupt and power-monopolising that a partitocracy: they can play one hand washes the other, ally against any third usurper of the system, or blackmail voters with "if you don't vote for us, The Other Side wins" (see the USA again, especially the election system and campaign finance, and the Nader case).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 14th, 2005 at 06:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I asked gilgamesh: Do you have some polling data on this?

While I am curious about polls on civil unions, if possible also according to parties, I looked up some other polls.

UDEUR, the catholic centre-left party that is the sole opposition within L'Unione I read of, gets just 1.3%. UDC is on the right, and it gets 5.7%.

I also looked up Nichi Vendola's victory in Puglia again. It is even more impressive than I put it before - to extend the list:

1 he won in a Southern province (where people are more conservative),
2 he won as an open gay,
3 he won as a communist,
4 he won with 6% more than the last centre-left candidate,
5 he won by even more than the supporting L'Unione coalition on list votes (0.1% more - that must have come from the right!),
6 he won while the L'Unione vote included 3.28% vote for the Christian Democrat UDEUR and its centrist allies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 14th, 2005 at 08:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why in blazes would you want to get rid of PR?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 14th, 2005 at 07:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See here. (Why I don't think it solves the problem Gilgamesh details there, see above.)

BTW, I just read of the recent dispute kicked off by the government's plan to introduce a 4% margin, which Prodi protested against in the strongest terms. I wonder what gilgamesh thinks about that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 14th, 2005 at 09:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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