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Why the fuck is that?
by mimi on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 12:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, uh, because that's the nature of the party. What fucking part seems incomprehensible to you?

On second thought, because you're an American, maybe you are misled by the US meaning of the nomer 'liberal'. But, it was only in the USA that 'liberal' became associated with Big Government and social programs like the New Deal. Elsewhere, liberalism remained to be focused on freedoms (especially where those weren't yet achieved).

In the seventies, US economist Milton Friedman et al, the so-called 'Chicago school' who 'helped' Pinochet, created the theory that 1) the smaller the state and the more private the economy the better ('markets regulate themselves'), and 2) economic 'freedom' should be there first, it will create political freedoms second. This is called 'neoliberalism' world-wide, but in the US, used less often.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, you really equate the FDP to the libertarians?  (Neoliberalism - is that comparable to right-wing libertarianism or more to left-wing libertarianism?)

I am actually German, but have lost track with German politics big time since 1980. I apparently have no clue what the FDP is all about these days. I am lost.
Also, from across the Atlantic, I couldn't get the divide between East and West Germans. I had to watch reunification on the TV set and have these days to host interns in their twenties from both parts of Germany, which made it clear to me that I have lost the capability to understand what's going on in Germany. I even don't vote anymore in Germany because of that.

by mimi on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 02:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mimi,

I am a German too and the FDP is definitely NOT libertarian in the American sense.
(Hmm, you could probably compare them to center to right-wing Democrats in the USA?)

Pro-market yes, but if they ran on a "libertarian" platform they´d be lucky to even get 5% of the vote.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 02:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I am getting so confused with the libertarians in the US. They seem to be center-left liberals, but then they are also outrageous right-wing extremist libertarians. I have no clue why both groups run under the umbrella of the libertarian category. I hate politics, nothing but an obfuscating fuzzy mess. Or let's say I am too dumb and too lazy to really try to understand their minds. :-)
by mimi on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 05:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I am getting so confused with the libertarians in the US.

1.  The reason you are confused is because most people, and alsmost everyone in the media, gives inaccurate and incomplete labels and/or descriptions to the political/economic theories or parties.

Its absolutely inaccurate, very confusing and even foolish, to divide the political spectrum into left and right.

  1.  There are no libertarians on this site.  I believe I am the only libertarian voice.  Maybe there are others, who just don't post, in part because they are afraid of being ridiculed, since some here would rather dismiss you, instead of debate the facts and theories.

  2.  Here is the link to the The US National Libertarian Party - http://www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml, where you can learn and educate yourself about the libertarians party issues.  

  3.  Here is a Libertarian Purity Test - http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi/purity.cgi

Be reminded that the libertarians are not uniform and they come in different forms - haha.  However, in general they believe in more economic and personal freedoms for an individual, and less economic and personal power to the  all-knowing, all-understanding, all-generous, all-providing, all-caring state.  

The ultimate question is the individual freedom vs. state control.

5.  This site has the world's smallest political quiz - http://www.theadvocates.org/index.html

Look at the upper right portion.

(a) In essence there are 5 positions:

  1.  Libertarian;
  2.  Liberal;
  3.  Conservative;
  4.  Centrist;
  5.  Authoritarian.

(b)  now you can see that dividing people into right and left is incomplete, inaccurate and misleading.
by ilg37c on Sun Sep 18th, 2005 at 11:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, but does sound exactly like the FDP version of liberal. (maybe apart from Gun control issues) but then there is a different culture they are liberal to.
by PeWi on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 03:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see the FDP calling for the

(1) the abolition of the income tax.  On the contrary, 2 American parties have it in their platform.

(a) the Libertarian Party
(b) the Constitution Party.

(b) the free trade.

(c) abolition of inheritance taxes, capital gain taxes.

(2) taking the state out of the education.

In sum, there are few libertarians, but no libertarian party.  Of course, in France, there is
Sabine Herold
who is a libertarian and got 80,000 people to protest against the unions.

by ilg37c on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 10:18:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well, I have read a bit about the Libertarian's way of dividing not into groups from left to right, but from top to bottom on the scale of how much "authoritarianism" each group got in his guts.

I have to admit that I don't like it. You can have restrictive (ie authoritarian) rules concerning taxes for example to ensure a fairer distribution of wealth among the population, which would end up in the best case szenario as giving more people more freedoms.

You have to defend freedom of press and freedom of opinion against authoritarian hate speech to ensure that everybody feels comfortable to voice their opinion and not be bullied into silence. These would be authoritarian measures to protect freedoms.

So, I have my doubts about the top to bottom kind of scale. A fundamentalist libertarian can allow freedoms to be destroyed for the sake of staying truely libertarian and that doesn't make sense to me.

by mimi on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 07:54:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1.  The most important point is that dividing the political spectrum into 5 groups (the square spectrum) gives a more accurate depiction and provides less confusion that dividing people between the left and the right.

  2.   I have to admit that I don't like it.
You don't have to like it.  If everyone thought the same way, there won't be any disagreement or elections would there? :-)

3. You have to defend freedom of press and freedom of opinion against authoritarian hate speech to ensure that everybody feels comfortable to voice their opinion and not be bullied into silence.

(a) THere is an American Nazi party.  Big deal. They can print hate speech.  They can march and protest.  Big deal. They are miniscule.  Plus, once you have their opinions aired, you can debate them, show them how irrational or dangerous they are.

(b) same goes for the KKK.

4. Give me an example where your version of protecting against the hate speech provides more freedoms.

Cheers

There is no evidence taht the Libertarians do not want freedom of press or opinion.  The question is
(a) which method provides the most individual freedom;
(b) which method is more productive.

by ilg37c on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 10:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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