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I've enjoyed and found valuable this piece, and the two preceeding ones that you have referenced.  It would be a great exercise for America, in reverse, to try to gain some of the high quality life issues that Europe has over America.

But a few things jump out to me in this piece.  Not addressing, comparing, and learning from the unemployment issue would seem to diminish the value of this effort, as well as open it to significant credibility issues from the right.  Specifically I'm addressing from above: "The US does not use unemployment numbers the same way that European countries do, nor does the US unemployment offer the kind of protective, so don't compare ourselves to them"

the ability to work at a job to sustain yourself and your family is critical to most people, I think everywhere.  One of the Buddha's 8 principles was "right work".  And in such a strong work ethic culture as America, it just wouldn't fly.  And isn't unemployment one of the top political issues in France today?  

Now getting apples to apples numbers, as best as that can be done, or making people more aware of the differences in the numbers--that is clearly of value.

But I don't think those people in Europe or America that want jobs and can't get them would tell you they are leading a satisfied life of high quality.

I thought one of the points in the earlier pieces was to introduce more metrics that might get at quality of life issues, rather than to reduce existing and accepted measures.  

by wchurchill on Tue Sep 27th, 2005 at 07:26:53 PM EST
Very good points. There was discussion about a "quality of life" scale of some sort, which (for reasons I can't recall at the moment) I left off this list. But the unemployment issue is VERY key, so perhaps we can talk about this in a little more depth. One thing I recall is that European countries (speaking in generalities here), have longer unemployment benefits, and count more of the peope, whereas the US has a shorter unemployment period, and once a person stops collecting unemployment, are off the list...they are still unemployed, but not counted...so the US numbers are under-counted. How do we compare these numbers with such different systems? Well anyway, the real point is creating work for anyone who wants to work...and that is a big challenge we need to address.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 02:57:28 AM EST
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We can come up with fair metrics for that: the OECD figures, which I have saved somewhere, try to correct for national figures and explain where it doesn't work. I was working on a diary on this: I'll try and get it out today.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 04:43:22 AM EST
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Done now. That was fun.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 30th, 2005 at 10:55:17 AM EST
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Good job tackling a difficult task....

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Sep 30th, 2005 at 11:02:41 AM EST
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you are certainly right about understanding the differences between the various methods of counting unemployment.  I've wanted to look into this issue for years, but just haven't had time--specifically the unemployment vs. household numbers in the US, and then the differences between Europe and USA.  You are right about the shorter period of unemployment benefits in the US.  But it's my understanding that that is not the source of the unemployment figures that are commonly quoted in the US.  I believe those numbers are computed from surveys that are done, and statistics drawn for those--the question being basically, "are you looking for work".  This raises the issue of people getting discouraged and stop looking, and therefore fall out of the numbers altogether.  On the other hand, there's another growing issue of people working as consultants, and somehow being missed as working in some of the other statistics--like the ones that were discussed on this website comparing working people to total population, etc.  but anyway, I don't fully understand the intracacies of this right now.

Maybe I can find some time to look into this one.

by wchurchill on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 12:36:51 PM EST
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Sadly, the joke in SF when the dotcom bubble burst was that when you became unemployed, you instantly became a "consultant". But actually, joking aside, there are a LOT of consultants in the European job market...and I should know, I'm one of them (I'm working though).

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:13:56 PM EST
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and know exactly what you are talking about.  My wife and I are both consultants, as are many of my neighbors and friends.  But we are all working these days.  And it's a slow process to go back to full time employment, due to more freedom as a consultant, and frankly for most of us better money.
by wchurchill on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:39:37 PM EST
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part 2 to your response...there are some handy tools you should check out on this site, ways to look up economic related numbers with nifty charts etc. Check it out and bring back what you find!!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:15:41 PM EST
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hi bob, i'm afraid you may not see this, as it's an ol diary, but I couldn't find these sources on this website that you refer to.  can you  point me?  i have found as a result of these discussions other great sites.
by wchurchill on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 05:01:29 PM EST
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