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One of the paradoxes I've never understood is the amount of immigration in both Europe and the US.

Regardless of the actual differences in percentage there are plenty of legal and illegal immigrants. Most are coming for economic reasons and are apparently finding jobs.

Somehow the argument about the jobs being unwanted by citizens doesn't seem an adequate explanation. When government or pundit answers defy common sense there is probably more to the issue.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 11:10:05 PM EST
not sure I'm following you.  haven't you answered your own question.  the immigrants are coming for jobs and economic reasons, but likely also for a mixture of other things like safety, upward mobility, freedoms of many kinds.

there are jobs, and if the immigrants were kept out, it would be harder to fill those jobs, so either the wages would go up, or the jobs would be automated, or shipped outside the country--probably some of each.

by wchurchill on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 02:14:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The immigrants fill those jobs for lower wages, and if they are illegal the employer can usually save on social security contributions as well. By increasing the supply of work at lower cost, the immigrants hurt the domestic workers, but if the immigrants were not there not all their jobs would be filled: each worker would be more costly and so fewer would be hired. So, if you had as many illegal immigrants as unemployed citizens, removing the immigrants would not reduce the unemployment to zero. Far from it, actually.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 06:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as saving on Social Security and taxes this is false (in the US). Because of the present laws employers must employ only legal immigrants.
So what happens in practice is that the illegals get fake papers. The employers then use the SSN and subtract the witholding taxes.

A study showed that very few of these people ever collect the benefits and thus somewhere between 4-7% of SS collections are coming from these people. So they are, in effect, subsidizing everyone else.


Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 12:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right. In fact, the US Internal Revenue Service used to not be allowed to communicate information to the Immigration and Naturalization Service so that illegal immigrants would pay their taxes without fears of deportation. I say "used to" because I am not sure what the status is now that the INS is part of the Department of Homeland Security and all US domestic policy is subordinated to "security".

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 12:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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