Over here there are certainly a few elite universities, the Ivy League schools. If you can manage to get accepted to one of them, the tuition is not really an issue because they are all very well endowed and provide generous scholarships. And after you get out you're in good shape. Harvard, in particular, feeds into government.
At the next level down, the "really good" schools are where you have to pay big bucks to attend. Then at the state level the schools are pretty inexpensive and pretty much anybody can find a way to pay for them. They aren't strictly "free," but there are a lot of ways to find the required money.
An associated issue is the social aspect of valuing education. Universities generally have few black students, way out of proportion to the population distribution. But they have a lot of Asians, also out of proportion, but in the other direction. This seems to be related to how much value is placed on education by various social groups, since there are affirmative action programs for blacks and reverse discrimination problems for Asians.
Another point is that you can go to a state university here and still end up as vice president, Cheney being the current example. But that seems possible in Germany also, and possibly in France. (Not sure about Britain.)
There is also the issue of how you define "class." Does class = money? There are poverty stricken titled aristocrats in Britain. And the Kennedy family in America was pretty low class until a whole lot of money sort of magically appeared in their bank accounts during prohibition. Clinton certainly wasn't poor in the most extreme sense, but now he rubs elbows with the rich and famous. At least in America there is no formal class structure with titles and heredity, although certainly you get a big boost if you have rich parents.
I have personal contact with three types of "upper class" people. One group is the old-time upper class, who had great grandparents in government, with lots of inherited money, and an established place in the system. Another group is the now-poor old-time upper class, who struggle to maintain their position because they can't afford symphony tickets, ski trips to the Alps, and fancy houses. A third group is the new rich, who are also struggling to make the point that they belong to the upper class, by using their money to join the right clubs, go to the right schools, wear the right clothes, etc. Members of all three groups might go to the same church or belong to the same club, but you know who are the old timers and who are the social climbers. But the point is that you CAN move up if you can get enough money.
Bottom line is that if you are smart and work hard you can get to the top pretty much anywhere, although it may be harder or easier in different countries. I don't think that in practice this is a large differentiator between systems.
What I've been trying to establish in my comments is that we have a certain population under that level and it's almost impossible to get out of. Call it the underclass, call it the poor, call it whatever the fuck you want, but the fact of the matter is we have a huge portion of the population living under horrendous conditions -- in the ghettoes, the projects, the barrios, the trailer parks, the meth belt, Bible belt, boonies, on the streets, under bridges, in the fields, and innumerable other places we hide them out of and in plain sight in this enormous, gorgeous wealthy country of ours.
And we ignore them and deride them and mock and dehumanize them. We deny them welfare, medical treatment, education, housing, keep them out of the system and we are absolutely brutal in our blindness and when they become brutal themselves we lock them the fuck up and throw away the key.
I bring this up repeatedly and am met with argument after argument that it is not so and if it is so it is not that bad and if it is that bad it is certainly their own fault, whoever "they" are. 45 million with no medical insurance. Millions of families, children living in poverty. Millions homeless with tent cities cropping up here and there. How many millions will it take for us to admit we have a problem?
This isn't about the upper strata trying to pretend they're high-class. This isn't about the comfortable middle. This isn't about the solid but shrinking working class who vote their fear -- if it's so great here, what the fuck are they so afraid of? Do you think they're just stupid? If we want to solve this political madness, we need to acknowledge what it's rooted in -- poverty. Lots of it. Deny it all you want, but nothing will get done. Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
Thank you asdf for your reasoned comments pointing out the use of scholarships (and I would add loans) for students able to qualify at all levels. Mimi either doesn't have access to accurate data about the American university system, or has an agenda to present false data and unfairly criticize the system. It concerns me because I wonder if those on the site with primarily European backgounds might think there was even some accuracy in these comments.
It would be interesting to see if there is an studies, or data, that would allow us to evaluate the upward mobility in the two different systems. I must admit that my intuitive feel is different than yours, in that you think there may be equivalency. Based on living in Europe for three years and spending significant portions of time there for 15 years, is that the French and British system still have significant barriers to upward mobility in the government, in business, and socially. But though I had a lot of experiences, examples, and conversation about this, it's obviously still limited to my own contacts. In other words, I wouldn't put this forward as a fact.
For example, France has a large immigrant population with Muslim religious background and primarily from Africa. Are they moving up in the system? The UK has large black, Pakastani, and Indian minority groups. Are they moving up in the system?
Perhaps someone knows of comparative data in this area.
Here's a link from the LSE to get you started. Google is your friend: I searched on "comparing social mobility between europe and the US" and that popped up.
I suspect that maybe in Europe getting into the top 20% is harder, but in the US getting out of the bottom 20% is harder. Which way around is would be more desirable?
this is looking a lot bigger than I can take on right now, unfortunately. It's very interesting, but would require significant study to get it right.
thank you for the welcome Izzie. Frankly it's always a pleasure to discuss and debate with you.
Without taking the time to analyze this one in detail, there are a litany of examples from the above thread, regarding Mimi's lack of accuracy. Such as, Mimi says: "On an average the tuition costs per month is well over $ 2,000.00 plus for the cheapest public university." A number of examples were given in the commentary of schools with lower tuition; 20+ California State Universities have a tuition per their website of $2000 per year, San Jose University per one poster is at $2500 per year, U of Wisconsin per Izzy is $5600 per year. Needless to say, these are not the cheapest public universities, and her fact is of by a factor of, should we say, 8?
I suspect the same situation is true of most if not all US states.
It is actually rather shameful that the UC will conditionally admit undergraduates that don't meet its minimum English proficiency standards (concerning reading comprehension and essay writing), charge then UC tuition for a whole year while putting them on remedial courses, and throw them out at the end of the year if they fail to pass the infamous "subject A" exam. To cut costs, they have even started to outsource the subject A remedial courses to the University Extension centres and local community colleges, whicle still charging the students UC tuition fees. [The situation I am describing was current as of one year ago, during my last quarter at UC Riverside, the least prestigious of all UC campuses before Merced opened --- it might have changed, maybe for the worst] guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
All in all, with those added in -- non-resident status tuition plus books, her $2000/mo could be accurate for those conditions. Wildly inaccurate for residents, of course, but not inaccurate for what she was discussing.
That said, I'm still working on that diary -- almost done! And it's a thing of beauty if I say so -- all stories and emotion, sweeping generalizations and personal anecdote. There's nary a statistic in sight -- you guys are gonna have a field day in the comments, I swear! Dueling statistics at dawn, sir! I will see you in the comments. :-) Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
If you want to talk about upward mobility and compare those from the US vs. Europe, I think that's impossible.
First, define upward mobility, second, compare just two countries with each other, third, look at all factors that determine of why someone moves upward at all.
Education has not the same weight as a root cause for a person's upward mobility in different countries. Considering just higher education alone, tuition costs are not the only determining factor for access to it. Different countries have different ways of restricting or granting access to higher education. You would have to consider these differences as well to make comparisons meaningful at all.
France and Germany have both large immigrant populations. You have to differentiate here to make any comparisons at all. Are you talking of immigrants, who come as adults to France and/or Germany with or without same mother language, with or without school exit diplomas that allow them to be admitted to universities. There are really several factors which you need to look at, if you want to judge something vague as "upward mobility" through the education you gain in the country you want to move upward in.
I wouldn't know how to comment any further here as long as so many different issues are lumped together.
I am not quite sure I would like to go into discussing those issue that I wouldn't judge in the same way you do and I therefore just leave it at saying that I don't agree with your fourth paragraph.
In your fifth paragraph you try to compare something that doesn't quite fit, as Germany doesn't have private universities at all. It's not only possible in Germany for a German politician to come from a public university, it's impossible to come from anything else, as it doesn't exist.
In your six paragraph you try to get into a definition of what a class is in various countries. This needs a diary in itself, as it is different from the US to England to France and Germany.
And I think in your last paragraph you say something generally true. Luckily people adapt to their environments and it looks like they make it (to the top?) more or less everywhere. But then, if it were true, you wouldn't have huge population migrations. So somehow that might be just a bit smooth soothing talk over issues that might just be painful to face. But I am all for not hurting anyone. So, I agree. :-)
