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These arguments, and especially "peak uranium", are all valid long term reasons not to focus on nuclear power as a "miracle solution". What I am saying is that nuclear generates a lot of irrational fears and is a better medium term solution than coal for our power needs. We should not spend too much on research in that sector (beyond waste management and fission energy, which is a seaprate topic) in order to focus on renewabel development, but I don't personally think that it is totally silly to build a new generation of nuclear plants today that will last until wind and solar can provide all the base load power we need, which will require a few more decades of development and growth.

PS - what's "GAU"?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 10:14:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
GAU is "Größter anzunehmender Unfall", German for "largest accident to be taken into account"; a shorthand that made it into general usage in German.

My own critical notes:

  1. I consider waste management a serious, unsolved problem. One with a far longer reach in time than global warming.

  2. Peak Uranium is predicted above with the current level of usage. Your suggestion may mean a radical increase.

  3. AFAIK the timescale of building nuclear plants (a decade) is comparable to the timescale needed for development and replacement with renewables. The running time (c. 30 years) would be beyond that. It seems to me the preliminary solution argument would be more fitting for fusion power. (BTW, was 'fission' in your text a typo?)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 10:46:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"largest accident to be taken into account"

Or rather: "largest accident that must be assumed [of being possible at a certain facility]"

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 10:50:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry DoDO, I was composing my reply..... you made it so much quicker and neater, thanks
by PeWi on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 10:59:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  • Waste is not really unsolved. The French way seems good enough (see the links in my earlier diary linked to above). The volume of high risk waste is very tiny;

  • peak uranium is a valid concern, although as Rom point out below, there has been less exploration for it, so there could be ebough for, say, a 50 year window

  • the problem is that the first generation of nuclear plans needs to be replaced in the medium term. If all we do is complain about nuclear, we will avoid the potential deaths from nuclear for the certain deaths of coal.

Yes "fission" was a typo, sorry.

I don't understand why the energy put to fight nuclear energy, so far victimless in the West, is not put against coal which kills thousands every year and pollutes everything. I'd rather have a second generation of nuclear plants for baseload power, together with wind and a little bit of gas-fired plants for flexibility and peak, until solar becomes economic (because we invest to make it so), than coal for everything, but that's what will happen if we keep on banging on nuclear all the time. (coal has a simple political justification: jobs, jobs, jobs).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 11:51:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not just here in the National Sacrifice Zone (US' Four Corners Area) but around the country people are fighting to make coal safer, stop mountain removal, eliminate the pollution of water, soil, and air by the mining and burning of coal.

Also, to claim nuclear energy has been victimless is false.  Sorry, I hate to disagree with you, I am continually educated by your writing, but the mining of uranium has caused many deaths.  People who were told there was no danger and sent in to the mines with no breathing apparatus or any safety method.  In our town, a smelter was run for the uranium and vanadium - I don't know how all of that worked - but the slag from this plant is low level radioactive.  Back in the 50s and 60s this material was used as fill.  Fill for residential houses.  So now we have address lists of potentially radioactive foundations - but you won't find it at the realtors!  Anyway, the point is there have been many, many victims and people are fighting to improve coal.

I would suggest a complete and holistic analysis of all energy sources for their costs on a per megawatt basis.

by red moon dog on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 03:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree with your suggestion/hope to have  fully costed estimates for all energy sources. I have noted elsewhere that renewable energies are those closest to that goal; nuclear does not come so well out of that process, and coal comes out even worse.

But low level radioactivity is not very dangerous

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 06:16:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.

Regarding supposed danger from low-level radioactivity:
parts of the world with high natural-background radioactivity have fewer cancer deaths.  New Mexico, a major producer of uranium in the past and home to large ore veins that have yet to be mined, has a higher than average level of natural background radiation. It's higher than that of Chernobyl. Even with uranium miners, Los Alamos, Sandia National Labs, etc., NM has one of the lowest rates of cancer in the US--along with Utah (also a radioactive state) and Hawaii (ditto, thanks to vulcanism).

Uranium workers do not have higher rates of cancer, nor do radiologists, X-ray technicians, etc.--even though they receive greater exposures than people in other professions. Of all the professions, the workers receiving the greatest exposure to radiation are airline crews.

Greenpeace is an unreliable source of information about anything nuclear.  Just ask Patrick Moore, one of its founders, who refers to his former colleagues as fear mongers and who speaks about the billions of tons of carbon that nuclear energy has spared the world.

There is no risk-free form of electricity generation.

See the website of Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy:

www.ecolog.org

by Plan9 on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 06:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
GAU - Groesster anzunehmender Unfall
biggest expectable accident
or
worst case scenario

epecially in Nuclear power stations, it is the type of accident, that is still managable - or has to be planned for as managable. f.e breaking of cooling system and subsequent threat of core meltdown without breaching security or radiation limits. It is a flexible term and has to be redefined in step with security developments as well as thread levels. there are regular GAU trainings, which include Terror threat scenario and some such.

not to be mixed up with Super-GAU.

Even more baddest than just worst. (deliberate misuse of the Englisch language )

or, an accident that is worse than what was planned for and is an accident that was not managable. - ie the actual core meltdown like Tschernobyl
more

P.S.
the article I was referring to says: in order to replace all the coal reactors in Germany alone, Germany would have to build 60 new nuclear power stations. Since it takes 8 years to build one, we would need to build 16 a piece. The technical capacity does not exist to achieve this.

I think I know where you are coming from, and in a world with unlimited resources and no terrorist threat and no problems with storage, nuclear power might be a medium term solution.

But we have lost the last thirty years with this hope and it is not a realistic one. All the money that could have been used in renewable energy development, but which went into nuclear research is lost. Thats why we need a consequent re alignement toward energy conservation and powerstation that are small and produce locally (wind, geothermal, photovoltic) selfsufficency for the individual household and money back for the surplus energy.
Building regulation that demand energy efficiency like separate water systems, where-ever possible

here are the other articles from Greenpeace. Atomenergie: Keine Rettung für das Klima. pdf and Atomkraft: Eine Frage der Wahl?.pdf all in German I am afraid and no, I am not a member of Greenpeace.

by PeWi on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 10:58:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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