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I basically agree with you. I realize that the fact that English is the de facto lingua franca of the world irritates many people, but a fact it is. Most educated people below a certain age have at least a basic comprehension of English. Once upon a time that was true of French and to a lesser extent German, not anymore. In terms of the general audience writing diaries in other languages seems to me to be a bit like one of the econ diaries relying heavily on multivariable calc and differential equations to make its point - though I'm sure many here would understand (not me, not anymore, I've forgotten all that stuff).

On the other hand an occasional foreign language diary for people to have fun in shouldn't be that big a deal (though other than French, German, Spanish, and maybe Russian I don't thing there's a critical mass of readers for it to work). I saw afew's diary as a chance to have fun by practising my very rusty written French.  I also think one should be indulgent of references to articles and occasional extended quotes from such articles as long as they are accompanied by a brief summary. There's interesting stuff out there in other languages and translation requires a significant effort.  That said I always do translations when I quote from Polish articles, as opposed to French or German since I want more than just two other people to understand what I'm writing.  

So I guess to sum up, I think writing languages other than English is a losing game in terms of getting readership.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 10:43:09 AM EST
And then at some point the lingua franca will become Mandarin Chinese, and this whole English argument will become moot...but hopefully that is a way off ;)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 11:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most educated people below a certain age have at least a basic comprehension of English.

I honestly believe that this is an illusion created by English-speakers moving in certain educated circles. I too tought like you, or at least I thought it's true for my and most of the previous generation, but then met a surprising number of educated people who didn't knew more than "play" and "rec" in English, especially engineers.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 11:06:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to speak of actually communicating, and the accession of the new 10 member states has just made matters worse for English as a lingua franca.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 11:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but as usual, I have to give one for the other side :-)

The population of the ten new member states may be less English-speaking, but the younger generations are Anglophone there, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 11:13:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a language that can take a lot of punishment. You can cut it up, distort it, take out all the vowels - and still it is readable. It is a language that doesn't belong to anyone any more. It is Open Source - unlike attempts to museify languages such as French - to keep French 'pure'. That is the death knell - museums only hold inanimate objects.

So it is the least demanding language for people to make mistakes in. I believe that the idiosyncracies of English will be slowly ironed out - with consistent spelling, for instance. The Yanks have already taken out the surplus 'u's from words like 'flavor', for instance - and that is fine by me. I even use' thru' for 'through' in SMS. SMS, as we have discussed before, is a major influence on the streamlining of the written language among teens. When every button push is a labor, there's a drive to elide.

So I see the development of yet another form of English - simplified web English, that will be easier to use for people for whom English is not a first language. It won't stop Colman writing mellifluous prose, it will be another alternative for communication.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 11:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That may be true for written English. As for the spoken one, as for pronouncement - I personally take any language over English! (I made my medium-level spoken English language exam only at third try...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 11:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<personal factoid> In Switzerland, as I try to improve my confidence and vocabulary in German, people would much rather speak to me in English than German...and it happens all the time, which is not helping me in my learning German (but I'm also lazy and will easily slip into "helping" them with their English, rather than having them help me with my German...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 12:33:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fear the same would happen to me if I tried my French on a street in Genf...

I guess my difficulties in spoken English (I emphasize spoken - heard English is easier, I watch films in original language) come from two sources: the absolute disassociation of written and spoken words, and the uncertainty of pronouncement (the 'th' in say "think" is difficult enough would major English dialects not pronounce it very differently). In contrast, in German or French (or Spanish), tough they are Indo-European too (my mother tongue is not), I only have to learn a few differing rules, and almost all voices are familiar.

Now what I don't get is how say Swiss Germans don't trip their tongue on "thought", "calluous", "durable" and so on...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 02:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't want to cause offence, so please understand I only make the comment since we are talking about this kind of stuff. (And indeed your English is great and your level of foreign languages puts me to shame.)

But, many times you write "tough" when I think you mean "though":

In contrast, in German or French (or Spanish), tough they are Indo-European too (my mother tongue is not), I only have to learn a few differing rules, and almost all voices are familiar.

Sometimes this confuses me in comments you have written. (Where the context is less obvious.)

Hope this doesn't come off as a patronising comment.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 03:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hope this doesn't come off as a patronising comment.

Look, I am not an easily insultable poster, I am a tough guy :-)

No indeed, thanks for the correction - I guess the closeness to "thought" confused me enough to not even notice that I write two different words identically...

Just the other day, the ET spellchecker taught me that it's "occasion" on "ocassion", and that there is no such thing as "completition"...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 03:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
mistake. I will pay attention to write thought and not tough.
BTW, the basics of English are really easy, but when it comes to idiomatic words, well it's truly tough. Having learnt English at high school and practised it as a business language, I do lack the day-to-day idiosyncrasies.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Jan 25th, 2006 at 05:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"(the 'th' in say "think" is difficult enough would major English dialects not pronounce it very differently)."

Please don't be offended, DoDo, if I jump in here. I can't myself think of a major dialectal difference in pronunciation of the "th" in "think". It's an unvoiced "th" that most English speakers pronounce in the same way (with a possible slight tendency towards an aspirate "t" in some Irish accents?)

The disassociation of spelling and pronunciation, on the other hand, there you have my sympathy. But I look at Hungarian words and your explanation of how to pronounce them and marvel... ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 03:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To my ear, that "th" sometimes sounds close to a t, sometimes close to an s, sometimes a little d is in it. Fluctuating between these three (<-here is it again), I completely despair each time I have to sound it...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 03:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it really amusing that English speakers have no trouble distinguishing between 'thick' and 'sick' and yet insist on claiming that Castillians "lisp" when they distinguish between maza and masa.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 at 04:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
- unlike attempts to museify languages such as French - to keep French 'pure'. That is the death knell - museums only hold inanimate objects.
totally seconded Sven, as far as French is concerned. According to the official French wordbook we should write mél instead of mail. Isn't that pathetic ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Jan 25th, 2006 at 06:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How is it in Polish, by the way?

The French practice is not undifferent from the Hungarian, often-used English (and German and Latin) words are Hungarianised in spelling. This is partially the case in Germany, too - tough there is a more recent trend of the opposite, excessive Anglicisms. There are even English-stemmed word creations that make no sense to a native English speaker (this is lampooned as Neudeutsch).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 25th, 2006 at 06:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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