I have no doubt that, among the front-pagers, Colman, De and DoDo actually have the skills necessary to do low-level tweaking, and they obviously have enough of your trust to have full administrator access.
Familiarity with the scoop software can be acquired, all one would have to do is read this. An interest in the site is a much more important qualification than previous experience because it is by now obvious that monetary rewards for work on ET will be few and far between, if any.
A number of people have made comments at one point or another that indicate some familiarity with the workings of scoop, or confidence in their ability to make it work. This includes Metatone, ThatbritGuy, and ceebs, for instance. I also have no doubt Alex in Toulouse could bring himself up to speed in a day.
Why should I have to search and bring forward talent? Why don't you post a diary explicitly requesting talent to come forward? Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
Why should I have to search and bring forward talent? Why don't you post a diary explicitly requesting talent to come forward?
Because you're the one asking for changes to the software!!! In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Let's just focus our efforts in the same direction. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Like I said, I'm open to the idea of community members becoming stakeholders, but I simply don't have the energy to organize it. I will look at proposals with an open mind. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
In that diary I expressed doubt about whether the Scoop diary discussion thread was the best mechanism for collaborative editing, and wondered what other tools might be available. The Number One community member who denied any interest or possible practical application to my wonderings was you.
See comments: here, here, and here.
I note in particular that you thought we should just get on with what we had, that we could talk about what we might have till the cows came home but it would change nothing, and that Colman was right to have made software choices (the ET Wiki) that involved least hassle for him.
Strange how it's now apparently you who are sticking your neck out.
In that discussion I was talking practically about how we could work together as a community, and you were the first person putting down any suggestions I might make. Sven saw the point of having a discussion about the tools we might use, but you said to him:
In my experience with volunteer associations, ideas only get implemented by those who have them. Ultimately the way this works is that someone puts up a resource and starts working on it.
(BTW, that's what Jérôme did with ET, which is why we have it, just sayin'...)
and then:
I reiterate: It is not obvious to me that we have hit the limits of our platforms.
Colman was cautious about what I was saying, but it was he who suggested we use writeboard as a Web-based collaborative editing tool (and, having since then taken a look round at what's available on Internet for free, I think he's right writeboard is the lightest and snappiest for our purposes), which proved he was listening and coming up with something.
Just not you. What a change there is now, where you are apparently representing others who want things changed on the site, and are being bitterly frustrated by bad Colman and/or other forces in the background. What is it you're trying to show here, Mig, I don't get it? When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
Jerome has abdicated all technical responsibility on Booman, who is essentialy AWOL from ET discussion threads and (so I hear) can't or won't answer any technical questions that Colman asks him (like, for instance, traffic statistics for the site). Also, convincing Booman to get Andy to do stuff seems to be the big stumbling block to get anything done server-side. Colman has done just about anything that has been suggested and can be done with frontpager privileges. It took him all of 5 minutes to add the capacity to embed youtube videos. What sould he not do if he had the server administrator password, which only Booman [not Jerome] can give him?
We haven't hit the limits of the Scoop platform, we have hit the limits of the management structure set up 18 months ago to bring the site online.
And "I'm sticking my neck out" because it took me getting a '2' rating from Jerome before he thought it was time to have this conversation. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
So please reply: why, when I suggested a Scoop thread was not the handiest of tools for collaborative editing, did you dismiss that out of hand by saying we just needed to change our user settings, use the Wiki, and generally make do with what existed? And why do you now urgently need a techie to work on Scoop, to do what, and with whose agreement? When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
About three months ago, can you see the difference between questioning the need to set up new resources and questioning the way the existing resources are underutilised? Regarding writeboard, it's been handy, and since it is hosted by a third party it requires no administration work on our part, but we also quickly ran into problems with edit conflicts, minor edits, and the edit/diff history. You also said the HTML was a pain to work with, and converting to printable form was a pain. But hey, it beats having to find a server to set up MediaWiki (and manage the software). So kudos to Colman for that.
I have just been getting increasingly frustrated with the obvious inability to experiment with scoop configuration (I am not even talking about extending the code of the SCOOP engine, just playing with the existing customisation options) because there's only one person on the planet who can do that, and that's Andy. Like I said, Colman has added functionality to the site with (apparently) little effort but often he has complained that something was too low level. The point is, if apart from a team of frontpagers you had a team of admins with low-level access, things would start to happen. I can't tell you what those would be, I suppose I should go searching in comment threads for the places where I understood Colman was saying "that sounds like a good idea but I don't have the password". The last thing Colman did in a very short time was make it so that when a diary if frontpaged it stays on the recent and recommended diaries list. I just wonder how much effort would it really take to carry out more substantial tweaks with low-level access.
Things that come to mind from the past 6 couple of months are
None of this is mission-critical, it would just be nice. Some of these "feature requests" have been motivated by the fundraising exercise itself, and the answer tended to be that it couldn't be done because Booman had to convince Andy to do it.
Also, many months ago we had some threads where site statistics were discussed. Some statistics (for example, numbers of diaries or comments, or traffic details) were inaccessible because they required server-side access, or direct access to the database. Again, not mission-critical, but also not requiring new resources to be set up but just opening up the existing resources for trusted, able users to take advantage of them.
We discussed some of the stumbling blocks at the London meetup with Colman, TBG and metatone.
If I have gotten acrimonious it is because I perceived that valid questions, requests, points and arguments were apparently being completely ignored by Jerome and Booman. Those who dared to suggest as much, if undiplomatically because they were getting frustrated, got badly bruised (like Nomad here). There seems to be quite a bit of discontent [at least half a dozen regular contributors].
But you and I have a way of talking past each other. It is entirely possible that you'll say this long comment doesn't in the least answer your questions, so I'll leave it at that. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
I mean 6 weeks to a couple of months Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
As for stumbling-blocks that you discussed at the London meet-up, my diary three months ago hoped to bring up a couple of points about stumbling-blocks Alex, Alexandra in WMass and I had discussed at the Toulouse meet-up. You didn't show much consideration for those points then. Perhaps they were the wrong ones. They did, however, concern working cooperatively on papers and making collective community knowledge more easily available.
And what you're not replying to is why it is so vital to make an urgent issue of this right now?
I'm sorry you say Nomad got "badly bruised". As I (perhaps clumsily) tried to point out to him, I felt bruised by his comment. As I do by the innuendo that has been flying around for some time now that suggests there's some sort of hidden agenda "gnomes" are party to. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
Precisely because it is not vital I did not write a diary about it. But I can tell you a great many people are unhappy, but they've just about giving up voicing their concerns publicly on the site so as not to incur the wrath of the gnomes.
And regarding this and the hidden agenda, I have also been busy disabusing people of the notion that this is somehow or at all to do with the gnomes.
You're going out of your way to react to me as your enemy. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
On the contrary, you're the one who's putting himself forward on this. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
I am saying that your attitude then was totally contrary to your attitude now, and you are not explaining that. Is that clear or am I talking past you?
As for people keeping silent so as not to incur the wrath of the gnomes....???
Are you serious? What wrath? Where? Who is feeling intimidated? Are you suggesting there's a gnome posse out to shoot down the baddies? Are you completely out of your senses?
We have been told we are silent (see Nomad and others). That is interpreted as proof of "private e-mails" and a hidden agenda. But we are also told we are bullying people into silence. I have become increasingly silent as I'm not sure what to say that will not be interpreted as wrong in some way. The simple fact of being a "front-pager" at the moment is warrant for suspicion.
So: I'm in favour of a cooperative structure with a European base and server. I agree the Scoop software could do things better. I have already said these things elsewhere (so I have not remained totally silent).
However, I don't think there is such urgency in all this as to justify your current attitude, and I don't think you're succeeding in making a case for either urgency or attitude. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
I have also been busy disabusing people of the notion that this is somehow or at all to do with the gnomes
I am also not trying to make a case to you as to urgency or attitude, you're the one who's making this an issue of urgency and attitude. I have agreed it is not urgent
It's not vital to make it urgent right now, but it's been festering for 6 weeks. So it might just as well have blown over right now as a week ago as two weeks from now
Damn.
I just joked that the French are right ot behave arrogantly, because whether they do or not they are treated as if they were arrogant, so they might as well enjoy the good sides of it. Same thing here. We should behave like a clique if we're going to be thought to be one anyway... In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
I am sure you don't believe that people exchanging views offline is a new phenomenon? There's been all sorts of stuff been whizzing about virtually and vertically - music, games, arrangements, assistance, advice - whatever. It is a community after all.
The fact that a few friends and colleagues felt that these recent exchanges were more aptly kept between themselves is only a reflection of the perceived atmosphere here.
I initiated one of these discussions myself, after noticing a similar feel of frustration in various contributors with whom I communicate directly. So I clearly stand behind what Migu has been saying, although not always with the way he says it ;-) But mostly with the way he says it too. You can't be me, I'm taken
I personally don't mind that attitude, but don't blame us for perceptions that you do everything you can to create, because you enjoy the show. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
I remind you that this all started with a comment of yours that basically stated that Colman has cheated you by extracting money from you and then not changing the code of ET when you requested it. It ended up generating useful discussion, but it was an outrageous comment.
So consistency requires that you either tone down your comments (which I don't personally think is necessary) or that you accept to be a target yourself once in a while. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
As to Colman's reaction, I think he hasn't been around at all since your comment, so we'll see when he gets back... In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Signed: Bob the angry lighning rod. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
I'd tell myself you didn't read my comment, but you commented on it specifically to point out my one mis-attribution. As for the rest...you didn't comment. Maybe I no makea ze sense to you, Jerome? But can you see how this creates a sense of circling round and round a centre of strange silence? Hence, I think, some of the frustrations mentioned, and, well, why did you point out my misatttibution (which I think, though misattributed summed up a certain tone of yours...(the "I can't do anything without Booman's say so" kind of arguments)...but anyway, I made specific points and said where your inputs (your not very time consuming inputs) were needed. It may well have taken you longer to read and reply to Migeru's attacks than to answer the questions that Migeru's attacks (if I understand them correctly) have been trying to get from you.
So, why don't you answer the questions which you posted this diary to deal with?
And, yeah, yeah, we can go round and round with this. You say, "Hus? I wasn't aware," etc... But you read my comment (otherwise how could you comment on one attribution in the centre of it.)
Anyway, I now duck back out of the pie fight and offer you, Jerome, a llama.
Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
Yes? No?
If your answer is Yes
Could you give us a rough idea of timescales involved for you to contact Booman and get a response? (Days? Weeks? Months? Years?)
(I'd suggest you request individuals to volunteer to take this forward IF you get the info. So you don't even have to ask for the info if you don't get any volunteers.
(Before you ask, I'll take this forward, so you have at least one volunteer ;)
If your answer is No
See what I mean? These don't seem long and complicated questions. Even on a drive-by the answers should leap to your mind quickly...no?
Zis is why I sink I no makea ze sense or have got everything Rs over tyttwize (an old gnomish expression.) Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
It's also not all that important until the political/organisational issues are dealt with.
I bow out at this point... Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
I think some of the responses have been a bit too vehement, and I don't feel a need to have a go at Jerome or the Gnomes for being persecutory or Gnomey - or whatever else it might be possible to accuse them of.
I do think the original cash-call was handled less than smoothly, and there's been a lack of clarity about funding, money and other basics. But that's mostly been resolved now, at least for the moment.
Infrastructure issues aren't currently affecting the site. But people talking about other people behind the scenes certainly seems to be.
I'm not party to secret emails, and I don't want to be a party them. Can we make it a point to discuss things that need to be discussed in public please?
It was simply a way of cooling things off, when Migu was sticking his neck out on behalf of others and not seeming to be getting anywhere. We still wanted to talk, but to be able to talk freely - to ensure that we were all talking about the same thing.
If there is a ban on, or a stigma attached to, emailing 'offline', then I, for one, will ignore it as an intrusion upon my rights and my freedom of speech. You can't be me, I'm taken
For the record: the only e-mails I was party to on the subject of site management were those Migeru was also party to. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
Where's Alex when you need him? He knows all about the mystical levels of gnomery and the various coloured cloaks that demonstrate one's entree' into those extra layers where funny handshakes and strange eyebrow movements are de rigeur.
Jerome! Give afew the magic dice! He's protecting the gnomery!
;)
(Did you get my e-mail [secret conspiracy alert1]
If you did, then here's what I alluded to at the end of it.
(Ze consipracy deepens! ;) Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
So: until this weekend (and at the time of Sven's comment) the only e-mails re site management I was party to were those Migeru was also party to. It is important, in my view. But of course, some people may 'ave ze contrary perception, n'est-ce pas?
(I stole the magic dice from Colman's Den down the bottom of what we call the Badger's Hole. How did you get the picture? CCTV?) When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
I have my spies...
Of course there is a stigma associated with it. I have been involved in a phenomenal amount of off-site e-mail and I don't like it one bit because when it leaks onto the site, as it is guaranteed to do, it tends to be toxic. I also don't like it when stuff that is written on the site results in private e-mail, because it signals a breach of trust.
I am on record at least once saying e-mail-to-blog crossover makes me feel filthy. I tend not to initiate off-site email exchanges about the site [and I don't say "I don't initiate" because I know the PN brigade is ready to call me a liar, with evidence, if I do]. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
Shocked, aren't you?
No. I think it's bullshit.
Which part of I have also been busy disabusing people of the notion that this is somehow or at all to do with the gnomes did you not understand?
did you not understand?
The part that goes just before this quote, in which you repeat the accusation that "gnomes" are silencing people.
regardless of when this issue had blown up, you would have still confronted me with "why now"?
I'm not asking you so much "why now?" as why is it so urgent to discuss it in this manner, with this degree of acrimony? Why must this issue be pushed with such heat and (Sven has told us how important perception is, and how "appearances" were against "the management"), apparent desire to take things into your own hands (see in particular your call for programmers to work on Scoop software)?
But I think you give your answer at the beginning of your comment:
That was then and this is now, and that was the issue of cooperative working and this is the issue of the management of the site. What is there to explain?
You will not explain why your attitude on questions of method and form concerning the Scoop platform has radically changed in three months; and you admit that what you are interested in is the management of the site. That is what you consider urgent, and the agitation about the need for tweaks to Scoop is a pretext. Which is what I was driving at at the beginning of this exchange. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
People are not being silenced by the gnomes, they feel silenced by the gnomes. You can get all self-righteous and say it's their own damn fault for feeling that way.
The degree of acrimony is not my fault. The general degree of acrimony has been on the rise recently, and it has to do with this gnomes thing you think is bullshit. Now you'll say I've been agitating with secret e-mails so as to raise the level of acrimony, etc etc.
I am still trying to come up with a way to answer to your last paragraph without causing even more acrimony. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
I'm just entering this mad discussion with only one sub-thread read, but I have to flag this: the rise of the general degree of acrimony included the rise of acrimony between gnomes (say most recently poemless-Jérôme), so methinks you are over-generalising an idea of your own. *Traitor*, n. A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
As I said elsewhere, it is about perceptions. You can't be me, I'm taken
That stings, afew. For the record: In our particular exchange, I have not interpreted the absence of frontpagers as some dark collusion between them and I eplicitly made that clear later. But the moment the topic was broached - my speaking out and the resulting discussion may have well become counter-productive for the whole reason why I spoke out in the first place! And I regret that immensely, it was communication break-down at work, because the pretense was set that tabling the absence of frontpagers equaled suspicions of a hidden agenda. And this has festered its way throughout the community since then. That's how I look at it in hindsight.
The whole point of that discussion was to get everyone talking, not subdued... It failed miserably.
Let me just explain this, though, about what you quote above: I was not attributing to you the "interpretation" about a "hidden agenda", simply citing you as one who had said front-pagers were too silent. (Migeru linked to your comment higher up). And I didn't mean to bash you by doing so.
I'm sorry if my comments were hurtful in that exchange (I've been told by others that they were). I have just read them again, though, and don't see what is so excessive about them. I'd like you to understand that I felt hurt. Not by anything excessive in your comments, but by the supposition there was some kind of negative groupthink in a group that wasn't even inter-communicating about the subject.
As to "the pretense was set that tabling absence of frontpagers equaled suspicions of a hidden agenda" I don't think that's fair to what I in fact said (a thinly-veiled suspicion (or beginning of suspicion) that there was a plot in the upper spheres, that we were all toeing the line, or I don't know what), and I don't think pretense is fair either: there has been suspicion of this kind.
But I'm sorry, really sorry, about the misunderstanding between us. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
I'm not butch enough to say that the exchange then didn't affect me. Also, I can recognise karma when I see it - it was pretty clear to me you were hurt, which had simply not been my intention. I was frustrated when I posted; showering offense had not been part of the plan. And I was - and am - sorry that this happened anyway between the two of us. Especially while I still owe you a chunk of chocolate cake... So I hope that with this the air is clear.
Now, one more time a word about pretenses, because I think it is of importance for the current discussion. I know you didn't wrote what I used - yet it is the meme now. You wrote that there have been suspicions, but were they there before our little spat? Did our exchange embolden the idea, put flesh to a thought what was otherwise just figment? I'm not so much interested in answers - whatever the case, I fear the meme grew by vitue of our exchange, and I am very much afraid it either initiated suspicions or boosted previous ones if they were there.
But it splattered in the open now and I think there are important lessons to take away from. I do watch with a sad eye the certain ferocity of the exchanges with Migeru - because he's been sticking out his neck to such a degree it's getting a stretch. I couldn't be there on Sunday, I had a postnatal babyshower.
And now I need a drink.
But I think questions of community structure and organisation, which are important, need time to be fully hashed out and achieve consensus. I don't think anything useful can be accomplished in an atmosphere of agitation. And I don't see why it's so urgent to take over the server and tweak site organisation, especially since it apparently wasn't not long ago.
I sincerely hope the air is clearer between us. But there remains a little matter of chocolate pie... ;) When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
I do agree that there needs to be a consensus for some proposed changes, which will need the necessary time to nurture. I don't think that was the major obstacle - the major obstacle was to get confirmation to what extent proposed changes were possible within the current framework of ET.
And now to the negotiations of chocolate pie... :)
I did not even know that Colman could not do all he wanted to do. Did you ever check that fact with me? In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
The ET user who has most often decided to "Warn" other regular and well-known contributors because of her/his tone in a comment is almost certainly Migeru. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
In any case, if Jerome wrote this diary which everyone seems to be grateful for, it was because of that snappy comment of mine. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
As to getting admin rights to machines: I'll take those reluctantly if the people originally involved: Andy, Booman and Jérôme are willing to give them to me. It will then take a long time for anything much to happen as I work out exactly what to do and how to do it!
It would be nice if people would remember that in addition to having to find stories for the front-page and writing on the site we all have other lives as well - horses, families, jobs, studies, whatever - and sometimes it is just difficult to make time for things that, while important, are not perceived to be urgent.
