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Conscientious objectors can do civil service.

Conscientious objectors in the 1980's and early 1990's played a big role in the end of the draft in Spain and the transition to professional, volunteer armed forces. And there wasn't even a war on.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 09:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But what about hardcore conscientious objectors who believe doing civil service (especially if it is longer in time) is a way of paying ransom, of giving legitimacy to obligatory military service?

As someone who nearly became one, I am happy that Europe is increasingly abandoning the draft.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 09:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those were called "unsubmissive" (insumisos). There was a whole social movement around them, with high-profile court cases and imprisonments. It had (naturally) ties to the squatter movement, the anarchist movement, and the independentists from the Basque Country and Catalonia. The Conscientious objection rates in the Basque Country and Navarra were appalling, by the way.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 09:48:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read about the insumisión movement in the Spanish wikipedia.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:01:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apalling in what sense?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Much, much higher than the national average. There conscientious objection had clearly a political meaning of not wanting to serve in a Spanish army. The rate in Catalonia was high, but not so high.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:12:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was a conscientious objector and then used university deferments to delay my civil service. There was a waiting list of up to three years to get a civil service placement (teh rates of conscientios objection exceeded all expectations) and this led to some uncertainty when joining the labour force, as it was customary for employers to require that you be either exempt from service or had already served, obviously. In the end the civil service was abolished before I had to do it, but not before my last university deferment had expired.

Now, how could you be "unsubmissively" anti-militaristic and also an interventionist?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 09:53:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the assumption that those who get to be soldiers do so on their own decision, not as requirement; much like policemen or firefighters. Note though that my call to service was around the time of the Kosovo War, when my interventionism already received a blow.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I personally wouldn't have minded doing civil service under protección civil.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:15:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would support a mandatory "civil service" for everyone (boys and girls) where people can choose which public service to participate in, perhabs with the military as one but not default choice.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One problem in Spain was that as of 1996 only 1 in 5 (according to the Spanish wiki) conscientious objectors got to do their civil service, because the system did not have the capacity to absorb the large number of objectors. The system would have to be carefully designed and adequately funded so that the military does not become the default choice by lack of opportunity to serve elsewhere.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the assumption that those who get to be soldiers do so on their own decision, not as requirement

Apatriotism another factor: intervention as international enterprise, vs. drafted army is national.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For Europe I find some interest in the idea of a much wider in scope post-secondary school mandatory service. Some of it would be military, other parts, um, environmental work?? (It's not like I have this well thought out...) This service should be required to take place in a country other than ones home country, and in a language other than ones native one. A kind of enforced, get out, get about, make Europe less foreign. But why mandatory? Why not just encourage young people within existing programmes, and new ones? Well, first there is a  socio-economic factor. (Maybe, I have no data...) But more importantly, mandatory things can have a very beneficial effect in making one do something that one otherwise would prioritise away. Let me bring a personal example:

I went to university in the US. For my undergraduate degree I had to not only take subjects in my major, and related areas, but also in history, anthropology, sociology, literature, art, or rather, I had to pick several subjects from a list of humanities, arts, and social sciences. Subject that I would have never bothered with at the university level, not because I don't find them interesting, but because under a system where it would be allowed but not required I would have felt compelled to concentrate on what directly mattered to my future occupation.

(For all the terrible things I have to say about the US, I really, really like their broader undergraduate curriculum. Going to university there was quite simply great. Maybe not true for all schools??)

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:25:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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