Display:
Well, yes, Catalunya as patria chica and Europa as patria grande. If that is the position of the PSC, where does that leave Spain? As a preserve of the anti-Catalan PP, or of Ciutadans?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, for the PSC, the idea of Spain is a federal state. And when Maragall was giving examples about patria chica, he said places like Torruella de Montgrí, Barcelona o La Mancha, not necessarily Catalunya. Especially since your patria chica can be La Mancha but you're living and working and voting somewhere else, as nearly have of the Catalunya inhabitants.
by amanda2006 on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:18:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
have meant to be half.
by amanda2006 on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just because only ERC is explicitly separatist doesn't mean that ICV or CiU wouldn't campaign for independence if it were put to referendum.

Actually, IMHO a good thing about an independence referendum in the Basque Country and Catalonia would be to force PNV and CiU to stop sitting on the fence and being all things to all people regarding separatism.

But the Referenda would have to allow subsets of the respective regions to opt out of independence, too.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, IMHO a good thing about an independence referendum in the Basque Country and Catalonia would be to force PNV and CiU to stop sitting on the fence and being all things to all people regarding separatism.

This could be a reaction to Puerto Rica's always smoldering independence movement.  Of course, the solution is a dose of reality as one PR native told us:  "We don't want to starve to death."

http://www.topuertorico.org/government.shtml

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the surviving separatist movements in Europe involve the wealthier regions in their respective countries: the Basques and Catalans, the North of Italy, the Flemish, the Bavarians...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the difficulty.

And independence referendum would shut the PNV and CiU up, however what happens if they win.  Or turning to the Basque county, it passes with 65% of the vote in Vizacaya and Guizpoca, is rejected by 65% in Alava, and is narrowly defeated with a a 51% no vote?

That will create all sorts of problems.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why you have to have extensive negotiations on the terms of any referendum. For instance, one could propose that the referendum will pass on its regional result, but that any province can opt out. But to agree on that would take some serious negotiations.

The problem at heart is not one of nationalism, but of democracy, community, and hierarchical and overlapping allegiances.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... was defeated when it was put to a referendum ... I think in the 50's or early 60's. The Hunter Valley was added to the referendum area, when the New England activists had done nothing to promote the idea in the Hunter, the Labor Party in the Hunter opposed the referendum, and the dairy farmers in the Upper Hunter were told they would lose their place in the NSW diary price support scheme.

Mind you, not to leave Australia, just to enter Australia as a separate state to New South Wales.

So in the end it passed in the areas originally agitating for seperate statehood, with larger majorities the closer to Queensland (and further from Sydney) ... but was overwhelmingly rejected in the Hunter and went down to defeat.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 04:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
61 comments

Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
36 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9
3 comments

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
12 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

Recent Diaries
Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
36 comments

Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
61 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9
3 comments

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
12 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Answers to the Renewable Energy Consultation
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 7

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

The Imitation Of Germany
by afew - Feb 4
31 comments

Strange Fruit
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 4
14 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Mismatch with the Natural Gas Market
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 3
22 comments

The Future of Economics
by ARGeezer - Feb 2
191 comments

Desert Island Discs - Helen's distortions
by Helen - Jan 31
49 comments

Gorila
by DoDo - Jan 29
14 comments

Rail News Blogging #7
by DoDo - Jan 29
15 comments

Obama's State Of The Union: LQD
by Crazy Horse - Jan 25
74 comments

Democracy Technology
by gmoke - Jan 24
1 comment

The Hydrogen dream
by Luis de Sousa - Jan 24
49 comments

ET Paris Meet-Up 2012 (2 UPDATE)
by afew - Jan 23
113 comments

More Diaries...
Occasional Series