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I think for this to work you'd have to replace national identity with a much broader sense of European identity.

Is it possible that (say) Catalonia would want to give up Spanish rule in return for a looser European affiliation? In practice it would depend on the small print. Given the fiasco over the constitution, the prospect of Brussels being able to craft a workable template for simultaneous national devolution with supranational affiliation isn't good.

So in practice I'd guess there would be a wave of breakaways, including Scotland, possibly Wales, and then maybe Catalonia and one or two others. These would be based on very local sentiment rather than European solidarity. And that's where the process would stop.

Other nationalisms are minority interests and likely to stay that way unless people see there's some significant benefit to splitting off.

The worst case scenario would be nationalisms that were explicitly anti-European - within Europe. If Scotland breaks away, this is likely to happen within England.

You'd then get the interesting situation of Scottish indepence sold as freedom from England, and English independence sold as freedom from Europe.  

An England without Scotland and Wales, outside of Europe, would be a very bad place to live, because without the Scottish counterweight English politics would immediately lurch far towards the right.

Bad. Very very bad.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:06:21 AM EST
I think for this to work you'd have to replace national identity with a much broader sense of European identity.
Yes, and a you would have to address the issue of citizenship. I would be happy with such a regional devolution of power if citizenship was shifted up to the European level. A more federated Europe in short. In particular, I believe voting rights should be entirely determined by ones place of residence, not by place of birth or citizenship of ones parents. In particular important for a Europe with smaller "nations", as more people would be likely to live large chunks of their life outside the "nation" they started in.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At least for local elections, we already have EU-wide voting rights. In some countries, EU citizens can also vote in national elections.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK, citizens of any commonwealth country or of Ireland can vote in Westminster elections, but not EU citizens.
To vote in parliamentary elections in the UK you must be a British citizen, a citizen of another Commonwealth country or of the Irish Republic, as well as being resident in the UK, aged 18 or over, included in the register of electors for the constituency and not subject to any legal incapacity to vote.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 07:02:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup, and this is a move in the right direction. I think this should be expanded. It seems even more important if more devolution was to take place. The assumption that one maintains some kind of association to ones birthplace long after moving away from there is perhaps a bit stretched as moving within Europe is so easy, and increasingly common. Or perhaps this is just me? I have a difficult time feeling that Swedish elections really matter to me personally anymore.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 08:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I too would favor abolishing viting rights for those with residence abroad. I note AFAIK it's not universal. It is usually introducted by right-wingers who count on the conservativeness of exiles maintaining their heritage. It happened most recently in Italy, though it proved a fatal miscalculation for Berlusconi & co (costing them Senate majority).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 09:01:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about giving those living abroad their own separate constituency? At least that way they won't be disenfranchised by both their countries of nationality and residence.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 09:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that depends on the system of representation. But my general idea is that no one should vote on something they will not suffer the consequences of themselves.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 09:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When "something" is "electing representatives" you must have a very narrow definition of "suffer the consequences" if you want to exclude expatriates.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 09:50:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, obviously, I am thinking of a governing majority.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:00:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're thinking in terms of expatriates tipping the electoral balance in a two-party system.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:13:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That, or large multi-party blocks. "Balance minority" parties also can have great influence.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Question: what do expats need representation for?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They need representation somewhere.

And your country of nationality is the only place where you are guaranteed to be able to move to in the future. Some countries tax expatriates, some countries draft them into their armed forces. Especially nowadays, expats don't necessarily intend to stay away forever. And with today's transportation and communications, they're not "gone" like emigrants used to be 100 or even 50 years ago.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
guaranteed to be able to move to in the future

Do you mean they need representation to preclude elimination of this right? I'm not sure they deserve this right.

Some countries tax expatriates

Oh, I'd prefer the elimination of that in the course of agreements against double taxation.

some countries draft them into their armed forces

Well, and then they draft-dodge. (Tarkan, Turkey's biggest boy-singer star, lived in the USA for that purpose.)

Especially nowadays, expats don't necessarily intend to stay away forever.

Isn't this a country-specific comment? At any rate, if expats come home, then they regain their voting rights. I don't see why they deserve more rights coming from this reason than 'simple' immigrants.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:36:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I suppose if you really want to disenfranchise expatriates, that's ok.

Why should they be able to keep their citizenship, then?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the drive of what someone and I wrote is indeed towards residence-right over birthright, as already practised in local elections.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have time to go through all the articles in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that you're arguably violating.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 08:45:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh!? There are a lot of countries in which citizens with residence abroad weren't granted the right to vote, so I am really curious where you think they violate human rights.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No kidding about the rightward lurch. Edinburgh here I come.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Mon Dec 11th, 2006 at 07:16:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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