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Not to mention to Alsace-Lorraine is actually only Alsace-Moselle (i.e. one out of the 3 départements), i.e. the German-culture areas that were part of Germany at various bits.

As far as I know (and I grew up there), there is zero support for any kind of independence over there, and quite an opposite pride in being French, and having fought and suffered to be French (there's nothing that Alsatians hate more than to be told that they are not completely French).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was funny to watch when cyclist Thoma Voeckler had his days of glory on the 2004 Tour, and struggled to deal with his immense popularity in Germany: all that remained German in him was hearing his grandmother talk German, but all the reporters were prodding him to give some connection.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:27:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the problem with using wikipedia and a NUTS-2 outline map to make this.  Did you know that the EU has been funding Alsatian language radio?

And data from what I believe is EU research shows nearly 900,000 Alsatian speakers.

The Euromosaic study funded by the EU is a good place to start looking at where linguistic minorites exist.  These often form the basis for nationalist movements.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that (1) Alsatian-speakers are almost all older people, (2) almost all are bilingual, but in such a way that those below 70 using French even at home, and (3) ironically, it is suppressed not just by French but standard German, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 07:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no idea where you get that information from, but this is almost all false:

  1. a surprising number of young people speak Alsatian - and use it regularly
  2. everybody also speaks French, but a lot of people speak Alsatian spontaneously. Go on the markets even in Strasbourg, and the chat will be in Alsatian. There is no hostility whatsoever to those that speak only French, but the default language is very often Alsatian.
  3. I do'nt see how it is suppressed. It's been shown on TV forever, and there have always been classes at school (where a lot of people learn German - hochdeutsch - anyway as the first foreign language rather than German)


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:02:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no idea where you get that information from

Hm, let's see...

  1. A (print) article referencing a (French) study titled "The decline of the Alsatian dialect" or something,
  2. a (German) documentary I saw,
  3. an article by an Alsatian I read a few months ago on the web,
  4. my own admittedly very limited experience of not having heard a single German(ic) word when I was in Strasbourg for one day.

...but based on what you write, these were apparently mistaken, alarmist, or I misinterpreted them, or what you write about young people is a newer trend also as a consequence of said study.

3. I do'nt see how it is suppressed.

Sorry, maybe not the best word I chose. I didn't mean suppression by force, I meant being eclipsed by the presence and use of the others. What you mention that many people learn Hochdeutsch rather than Alsatian is part of this (and parallels what happened and happens to some German dialects in Germany proper, BTW).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
for my slightly dismissive tone.

I'd need to dig up sources again, but that's been the experience of my growing up there, and occasional visits. I cna ask my parents who live there...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will be happy if you can take time to dig up sources or ask your parents; but for clarity, for me your word was enough, I really meant that my sources or my reading of them might have bias or outdated.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
worth with the influence of the EU in Europe.

And I'll ask you a simple question.

What, if any, reason is there for Alsace to not call for self rule and independence if they can retaing the economic adavantages of being French by staying in the EU.

This is the problem that the growth of the EU creates. That post 1914 state system is being challenged from below by national minorities and above by European regulations.  Who needs France when you can get the same things from the EU?


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if they can retaing the economic adavantages of being French by staying in the EU.

In France, they are the second richest region, close to Germany but with support of the central French state. Alone, they are the poorer cousin of the Rhine valley as Basel, Baden-Würtenberg et al. are even wealthier...


Who needs France when you can get the same things from the EU?

The question also is: what State will let go more easily. Not France, for sure.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 12:40:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The question also is: what State will let go more easily. Not France, for sure.

That is an issue of democracy, too.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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