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In Spain it should be relatively easy to dig up polls asking people to rank their feeling of belonging to their region, to Spain and to Europe. I will try to do that later.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 04:27:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 If we measure the desire of independence according to votes, in the last elections to Catalan Parliament (01/11/06), Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya, the only party that favours independence, got 14.03%  of votes in a low turnout of 56.04%.
No llegará la sangre al río...
After leaving the Generalitat, President Maragall wants to work for the European integration, being the Mediterranean his area of expertise.
Some days ago, he said that one can have a small fatherland ("una patria chica pequeña") --the sense of belonging to your hometown or region but that now, our big fatherland is Europe.
by amanda2006 on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, Catalunya as patria chica and Europa as patria grande. If that is the position of the PSC, where does that leave Spain? As a preserve of the anti-Catalan PP, or of Ciutadans?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, for the PSC, the idea of Spain is a federal state. And when Maragall was giving examples about patria chica, he said places like Torruella de Montgrí, Barcelona o La Mancha, not necessarily Catalunya. Especially since your patria chica can be La Mancha but you're living and working and voting somewhere else, as nearly have of the Catalunya inhabitants.
by amanda2006 on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:18:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
have meant to be half.
by amanda2006 on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 05:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just because only ERC is explicitly separatist doesn't mean that ICV or CiU wouldn't campaign for independence if it were put to referendum.

Actually, IMHO a good thing about an independence referendum in the Basque Country and Catalonia would be to force PNV and CiU to stop sitting on the fence and being all things to all people regarding separatism.

But the Referenda would have to allow subsets of the respective regions to opt out of independence, too.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 06:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, IMHO a good thing about an independence referendum in the Basque Country and Catalonia would be to force PNV and CiU to stop sitting on the fence and being all things to all people regarding separatism.

This could be a reaction to Puerto Rica's always smoldering independence movement.  Of course, the solution is a dose of reality as one PR native told us:  "We don't want to starve to death."

http://www.topuertorico.org/government.shtml

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the surviving separatist movements in Europe involve the wealthier regions in their respective countries: the Basques and Catalans, the North of Italy, the Flemish, the Bavarians...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the difficulty.

And independence referendum would shut the PNV and CiU up, however what happens if they win.  Or turning to the Basque county, it passes with 65% of the vote in Vizacaya and Guizpoca, is rejected by 65% in Alava, and is narrowly defeated with a a 51% no vote?

That will create all sorts of problems.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why you have to have extensive negotiations on the terms of any referendum. For instance, one could propose that the referendum will pass on its regional result, but that any province can opt out. But to agree on that would take some serious negotiations.

The problem at heart is not one of nationalism, but of democracy, community, and hierarchical and overlapping allegiances.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... was defeated when it was put to a referendum ... I think in the 50's or early 60's. The Hunter Valley was added to the referendum area, when the New England activists had done nothing to promote the idea in the Hunter, the Labor Party in the Hunter opposed the referendum, and the dairy farmers in the Upper Hunter were told they would lose their place in the NSW diary price support scheme.

Mind you, not to leave Australia, just to enter Australia as a separate state to New South Wales.

So in the end it passed in the areas originally agitating for seperate statehood, with larger majorities the closer to Queensland (and further from Sydney) ... but was overwhelmingly rejected in the Hunter and went down to defeat.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 04:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In 2003, El Mundo or El Pais has a front page story about a poll that showed majorities thought of themselves primarily in terms of regonal identity rather than being Spanish in the Basque Country, Navarra, and Cataluna.

Part of the reason the proposed Basque referendum was so contentious was because polls showed the referendum would pass with a narrow victory.  And that would sort of fuel the assertion by ETA that the Spanish state is undemocratic, no wouldn't it?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Except it wouldn't pass in Alava, making the Basque state undemocratic. And a joint referendum with Navarra would fail in navarra as well.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which means that you can either have an undemocratic Basque or Spanish state, or you can have a divided Basque country.  None of these options are paricularly appealing.

In the long term, I suspect that a divided Basque country, Vicaya and Guipuzcoa Basque, Alava Spanish, and Navarra a state of its own would reduce the prevalance of conflict.  Significant minorities in Viscaya and Guipuzcoa support violence, but with their own state, the hardliners would lose the support of sympathizers.  

This is but one example of the type of messes that nationalism let lose by Scots independence could bring.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 12:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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