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with successful slanders, there is a ounce of truth underneath that makes the argument credible.

Or maybe it is because the most vocal part of the enviro groups today is definitely on the left. And they are a visible annoyance, and thus it is easy to reduce their credibility by focusing not on their message but on the fact that are clearly on the left, something really bad nowadays.

But the fact is that some of them are hard left and have a pretty explicit anti-capitalist agenda as well. The greens that are willing to work within the system (accepting market based mechanisms) are not well considered in all enviro circles.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 at 05:54:39 AM EST
To see an example of the demonization of the left:


For an independent voter the only argument for keeping the Republicans in charge is the prospect of something worse (Cromwell, remember, replaced the Rump Parliament with a military dictatorship). And there are plenty of things to worry about with the Democrats. Their party looks ever more susceptible to the siren call of protectionism. It has no better ideas than the president for dealing with the mess in Iraq (and some worse ones). And robust scrutiny could give way to hotheaded revenge. It would surely do Mr Rumsfeld a power of good to be hauled before opposition-dominated committees from time to time; but talk of impeaching Mr Bush is dangerous. Nancy Pelosi, the worryingly left-leaning representative from San Francisco who is likely to be speaker, will have a tough job keeping control

From the Economist (behind subwall).

There are various ways to understand that sentence, but one way sure is that leaning left is worrying per se.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 at 05:58:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ANY successful society MUST be a combination of community and individual rights and responsibilities.  So a leftist position that it is ALL about community or a rightist position that it is ALL about individual rights are equally flawed.

The climate-change debate is especially illuminating when it come to the individual vs community issue.  After thousands of years of finding ever more clever and sophisticated ways to start and use fire, we are told we have a decade to find a way to douse at least 80% of those fires.

This will be an astonishing difficult task.  It is FAR beyond the abilities of either group of extremists.  The market-will-solve-everything folks have to explain how Enron made SO much progress addressing climate change.  The lefties have to explain why the Marxist states were such environmental disasters.

That leaves us mixed-economy folks in the middle.  And yes, we DO have solutions that have at least a CHANCE of success.

Personally, I just want the extremists to STFU and get out of the way so the grown-ups can run things for a while.


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 at 11:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
accepting market based mechanisms
I'm on the left (pretty far...) and willing to accept market based mechanisms. As in, I believe "the market" is politically determined, and if we alter the axioms of "the market", there will still be a "the market", though it will be operating under different rules than the current "the market". Profits can still be made, but not the obscene hyper profits of the rich at the expense of everyone else, and at the expense of resource depletion. Work within the system to change the system, as they say. Sustainability now!
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 at 06:23:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, someone.

'Market' rhymes with 'political power' and the reverse. But it would probably be somewhat easier to define 'political power' than to define 'market'. Oh no, it isn't: the market is the market as defined by political power. The world is so transparent. This means the end of Clintonism, Blairism, Barrosoism and maybe even Ism-ism.

Light candles, beat drums, pray, go outside and dance naked in the light of the full moon, whatever, to help shift the political balance in the U.S. For once I'll unashamedly let a foreign power dominate a comment on the pages of the European Tribune.

by Quentin on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 at 08:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interestingly, part of the 'traditional' hard-left thinks that Greens are middle-class fake lefties...

Meanwhile, note the German Greens' story. They emerged from grass-roots environmental groups, who were joined by members of the tiring far-left extra-parlamentarian opposition. The latter, having much more political training, rose and slowly took over almost all leadership positions. The majority of them then formed the (more moderate) 'Realo' wing. Fischer is the prime example, who in the seventies was an activist, squatter, street-fighter in Frankfurt.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 6th, 2006 at 07:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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