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London South of the Thames has very limited Tube service, having to make do with commuter rail (which is quite dense, on the other hand). As an affordable (and presumably quick to build) alternative to the underground, South London has built a tram network, the Croydon Tramlink.

I have heard Ken Livingston wants to close Oxford Street (London's main upscale shopping area) to car traffic and build a tram line along it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 06:55:08 AM EST
Kewl!

London has another growing light rail system, I guess closer to you: the Docklands Light Railway, which will get its second Thames crossing by 2009.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 07:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but DLR is overground, usually on elevated tracks.

This is about trams so I glossed over it. Also, it also covers mostly the north bank, although it has, as you say one river crossing and will get more.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 08:12:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And that river crossing underground :-) Why don't you consider the DLR a tram?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 09:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose because it doesn't share its rights of way with regular traffic at any point, and it's all on dedicated track? After all, they chose to make it elevated instead of street-level.

The Tramlink does have some sections outside of streets, and shares track with the commuter rail, but it does have sections where it shares the right-of-way with regular traffic.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 09:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it doesn't share its rights of way with regular traffic at any point, and it's all on dedicated track?

Is that true at the Western and South-of-Thames ends too? (I'm asking naively, I only assumed they cross streets from maps.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 09:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those sections are elevated, except the last stretch of track into Bank, which gets into a tunnel.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:10:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that I think of it, I really don't know how I could have thought they cross roads even from maps, given that they are third-rail-powered!... So just light-rail, light metro.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I was just now going to make a comment about the third rail ;-)

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:21:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A friend of my father's used to work for Spain's national rail company RENFE as an engineer, but 10 to 15 yers ago decided to open a transportation consultancy with a couple of friends. I remember a conversation where he explained that trams were a very hard sell because politicians thought they were old-fashioned, so he said you needed to tell the mayor (or whomever) Lo que usted necesita es un Metro Ligero ("what you need is a Light Metro").

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:25:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny, that was something I wanted to bring up to stormy and R343L, that there is also a marketing level to the use of terminology here. "Light rail" also seems to sound sexier than "trolley/streetcar/tram".

Meanwhile, While the French boom and form design made surface light rail again fashionable with politicians, I note another bad trend: surface light rail and even more light metros are often brought up by politicians instead of heavy metros, as a cost-saving alternative -- which can lead to shiny new lines with insufficient capacity and slow traffic due to jammed streets...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:36:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The DLR was initially built very cheaply to run alongside existing rail-lines between Tower Gateway and Limehouse. From there it used redundant railway lines and viaducts that served the former docks, with some new elevated sections to run through the Canary Wharf area, to Island Gardens where it terminated at a high level on an old viaduct. Using light rail meant that no extensive rebuilding was required and the tight of way was already established.

From that first route, the line was extended to Bank Station in a new tunnel to provide a more convenient link with the rest of the tube network. Other lines on elevated track took the system to the service/"garage" facilities near All Saints, using elevated new sections for most of the way. The line to Stratford from there used old docks lines again. The southern extension involves a new tunnel under the Thames from Island Gardens which is now underground until it joins the existing BR station at Greenwich. From there again redundant routes were used to Lewisham. The other extensions are again a mixture of old dock railway routes and new build.

There is a tram system in Croydon which although is technically a separate town, is part of Greater London. That runs through the streets and then joins a redundant rail line towards Wimbledon that if memory serves was mostly used to haul coal to a town gas/coke plant at what is now Ikea and power stations at Mitcham. (I used to live in the area but I am not sure about the more southerly part of the routes)

One point of trivia, if it is the route I think it is, it runs close to the line of a horse drawn wooden railed line that ran from the south coast to London to haul fresh fish - accounting for a huge number of oyster shells found locally and a history of children making "grottos" or mini-gardens using them in order to beg for change to spend at Mitcham fair.

by Londonbear on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 11:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See this press release:
the Mayor and New West End Company's long term goal of further improving the West End to ensure it is the highest quality retail and leisure centre befitting a 21st century world city, [includes]:
  • The long-term goal of a tram-based public transport solution for Oxford Street, from Marble Arch to Tottenham Court Rd
  • Remodeling of Marble Arch to provide a new, world-class public space, with a high quality pedestrian environment and improved interchange between buses and the Underground. Making the most of the Arch itself, this will provide a fitting gateway into London's premier shopping area.
  • Renewal of the eastern end of Oxford Street, with the redevelopment of Tottenham Court Road station providing opportunities to create a proper eastern gateway to Oxford Street.



Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 08:22:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also the proposed north-south line (Camden to Brixton/Peckham, going via Euston-Kingsway-Waterloo en route). The public consultation documents have just been sent out on that one, 'cuz I saw them at the weekend when I was visiting a friend who lives in Clapham.

I believe there are several other 'outer London' routes in varying stages of completion - the one that springs to mind is a route along the Uxbridge Rd axis that's intended to open up the western approaches to Shepherds Bush.

The DLR is cool looking and pretty handy for short hops - but I live in Lewisham and it isn't very useful for getting into the centre from there as it's way too slow compared to overland rail or the tube from New Cross/New Cross Gate.

My folks live in Nottingham, which recently introduced a tram/light railway that appears to have been a raging success. The council are looking to bring in at least two more routes, including one out through West Bridgeford/Clifton to Nottingham Airport. The proposed hub and interchange for these routes will be at the railway station, where there's a viaduct from the old Grand Central railway line that used to run out of Victoria station and over the tracks of the Midland station before crossing the river.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 01:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Docklands line is incredibly cool, so sleek and futuristic and with great views. And as Migeru notes, it's an "el" to boot. [DoDo, any chance you'll ever do a diary just about elevated train lines?]  
by Matt in NYC on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 09:10:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sleek and futuristic it may be, but the open-plan elevated platforms are inhospitable to life in the London winter.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 09:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oooh, I know about those even less than I knew about trams before writing this diary, so maybe you could do it? If not, I may do so at a later time. (I currently have two more ideas to convert into Occasional Train Bloggings, and that will probably not happen until next year...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 09:45:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure you still know a million times more than I do! I just remember as a little boy thinking the El in Chicago was second only to space missions for total coolness. And today, I still feel like a giddy tourist whenever I ride one of the New York subway lines that suddenly shoot out onto elevated track. Here's a picture of the closest spot where this happens for me:

125 Street No. 1 Station, Harlem

by Matt in NYC on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
125th  Street Station

By the way, what's the code on ET for inserting pictures into posts?

by Matt in NYC on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The normal html img tag (<img src="http://www.your.site/yourpicture.jpg">). It's in the new user guide.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks! I'd actually tried to find this answer in the New User's Guide but from the FAQ. ET tech-gods, take note: the link (to the New User's Guide) in the FAQ doesn't work.
by Matt in NYC on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a direct link in the top right menu. But I corrected the link in the FAQ (it was apparently unchanged since the creation of ET as a daughter of BT).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The thing is, I admit to being Euro-centric, and there aren't many surviving elevateds here -- I can recall sections in Hamburg and Berlin, and the hanging railway of Wuppertal if that counts. I don't know more about the American ones than what I see in films (Redford/Newman The Sting, Patrick Swayze's Ghost, Lou Diamond Philips/Kiefer Sutherland Renegades etc.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spider-Man II! Those supposed NYC scenes were actually filmed on Chicago's El.
by Matt in NYC on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 11:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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