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When do you get an American democrat up in arms? When the interests of the middle class are seen as threatened.
I think this is true everywhere - the question is, then, whether and why the middle class in Europe has different interests than in the US.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it goes farther than this. Consideration of the interests of working-class and poor Americans has effectively been marginalized, and this appears to be by design. The Democratic party appears more and more to solely represent the interest of the middle classes which vote for it, and the more altruistic elements of the economic elite, which finance it, and because of its monopoly on the ideological space to the left of Attila, it can afford to completely ignore the more and more marginalized (and increasingly foreign, ie without civic rights) underclass.

In most of Europe, there is some of this going on, but most of the social welfare apparatus is designed to promote, or be an expression of, cross-class solidarity, and most political movements from social democrats leftward take very seriously the fact that this is the lynchpin of not just their own political power, but also the common and cohesive good. In the US, this is not at all the case, neither for the country at large nor for the Demoratic party in particular.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 03:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The process of abandonment of the working class is quite advanced in the UK, just look at the current state of the Labour Party, which under New Labour finds itself to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uk excepted of course, though in my shorthand, England really isn't part of Europe.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 05:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uk excepted of course, though in my shorthand, England really isn't part of Europe.

I was reading a piece that criticized Scots nationalism
as a cancer of state intervention on the virtous capitalism of the British isles.  I really question whether Scotland isn't more of Europe than Britain in this.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a ditty, think it's Billy Bragg, where one of the lines describes the UK as "an economic union that's passed it's sell-by date".

That's the image I have. Pity more Scots don't share that sentiment.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But they do.

The SNP is on track to be the larget group in the Scottish parliament, and SNP leader Alex Salmonds has promised to hold a referendum on Scottish independence if elected.

London's response is uncertain.  The election will come but two days after the 300 anniversary of the Act of Union.

While for the UK of nearly 60 millions North Sea oil is roughly equivalent to consumption, for an independent Scotland of 5 million North Sea oil is a significant source of export earnings.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 10:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah, North Sea Oil and Gas has peaked. England guzzled it all and now Scotland gets the post-peak tail end of it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah, North Sea Oil and Gas has peaked. England guzzled it all and now Scotland gets the post-peak tail end of it.

If the British government knew those oil fields were in Scottish water, yet still assigned contracts and sent the profits to London doesn't that suggest that the Scot might be owed something.  

I think that that McCrone report confirms Scottish paranoia that the English are out to take their land and money, and in the coming elections I think that the SNP stands a very strong chance of winning a majority in the Scottish Parliament.

And if they win, Salmond will call for an indepenedence referendum.  And I think that this serves to confirm that the negative comments of the American consul in Edinburgh resulted from the fear that a SNP led government might try to nationalize the oil fields or at the least review contracts.

Salmond has been making trips to Norway, and as we know Statoil is a state owned company.

This should be fun.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks to me like that oil is mostly to the northeast of Scotland. I'd say that the Highlands should declare independence from the too-English-like Border regions. Edinburgh is practically London anyway.
by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Best man at my wedding is a Danish diplomat, and steeped in all the arcane Danish historical stuff, which he enjoys talking about.

Seems to me I recall something of a claim Denmark still has on either the Orkneys, the Shetlands, or both, a claim they have tried to settle even as recently as around '14-'18 or so.

Wonder what sort of spanner that'd put in the works.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia has a list of territorial disputes, and Denmark is only involved in one
Rockall is a small rocky islet in the North Atlantic, in the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) of the United Kingdom. It is probably better known as one of the Sea Areas named in the Shipping Forecast broadcast on BBC Radio 4. The United Kingdom's title to Rockall is accepted by its neighbours. In 1997, the UK abandoned any claim to an extended EEZ around and beyond it. The remaining issue is that the status of the continental shelf rights of surrounding ocean floor is disputed with the United Kingdom by the Republic of Ireland, Denmark (for the Faroe Islands), and Iceland. These are the exclusive rights to exploit any resources on or under the ocean floor (oil, natural gas, etc.) and should not be confused with the EEZ, as continental shelf rights do not carry any privileges with regard to fisheries.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Back 'round about 1000 the Orkneys became part of Norway by right of conquest: King Harold stole it from the Vikings who had stole it from the Picts who had stole from somebody else.  In the Union of the Three Crowns the Danes  got the Orkneys as well.  In 1469 the Orkneys were the collateral for 8,000 of a 60,000 guilder dowry for Princess Margaret when she married the heir to the Scottish throne.  

The actual money was never paid so the heir foreclosed.

by ATinNM on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...England really isn't part of Europe.

That's the way it looks today, eh? But historically indefensible, and a tragedy - mutually weakening - both for the UK real-left (or what's left of it) and the European real-left (ditto). Our sensibilities, aspirations and history are so close, so intertwined -and at a level far deeper than Blair's current Thatcher-derived imperial protraction poodlism, "they" (UK) are part and parcel of - and need - "us" as much as "we" need - and are part and parcel of - "them".

For example, going back to before the Blairites' despicable bags-and-baggage takeover of the Labour Party complete with its ideals, history and traditions - the great Jarrow March, anyone?

Now compare with Italy's still-iconic painting of the advance of the "Fourth Estate" by Pelizza da Volpedo (1901) - we imagined it, they did it!

.. and at this point, who can possibly deny we all belong to the same ... historical flow/ideal entity/cultural-historical-civilizational whatsit???  

....

(Re Jarrow and how the heck an Italian can feel so strongly about "their" great March: I lived for a while in the UK's North-East, have great memories and still have close friends there in the "former" mining district.... so have deep enough ties for great respect and deep sentiment)


"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Becuase European bankers have unions?

Seriously, I think that in terms of the three classes, American politics is built upon a coalition of the middle and upper classes, while Europe has the middle in coalition with the working class.

Remember too that American democracy proceded American industrialization.  In countries where that is true the party system often breaks on cleavages other than class.  Which has been the case with the US.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 03:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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