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While I don't disagree with your main points in the second and third paragraphs, I have to disagree with the notion that the US constitution is "outmoded" and adherence to it is a "fetish". You could say I'm buying into the myths of american history, but I like the constitution. :)
by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is an inherently conservative document imho, and America will not go far, socially, without a major overhaul.

Hell, look what happened to FDR's minor initiatives.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 06:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
His initiatives thrived for about 50 years and have only been partially put down through a decades long, colossally expensive PR campaign conducted by the highest reaches of society. The constitution's simplicity makes it highly interpretive, as such I'm more interested in the current political and social climate and how it is formed by those with the means to do so. If I were asked how I would change things for the better, I would start by changing the control of the flow of information, not with a new constitution.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 07:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only those which were not overturned by a regressive Supreme Court on, you guessed it, constitutional grounds.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is conservative in that it doesn't specify a whole lot of things modern constitutions specify, as millman mentions. But is that really a problem? It has enough leeway to implement pretty much anything. Is there some specific social policy you consider unable to be implemented under the current US constitution?

There is also the fact that people will only accept so much change at a time -- as the population changes, the courts change too.

by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do think it is a problem. And while on the face of it it appears to give enough leeway to "do anything," this of course depends on an incredibly powerful and historically regressive Supreme Court, whose old fogies are appointed for life and who can, with the requisite rhetorical gymnastics, overturn what they like. FDR's PWA, NRA and AAA coming first to mind.

Try a bill nationalizing banks or insurance companies and see how far we get with the present constitution, the ruling about AAA running in this sense. Not exactly sure how we can therefore term this document giving "enough leeway to do just about anything..."

And try amending the thing. With 50 states and fractional, regionalized power bases, it's pretty hard to imagine the thing significantly amended. This is of course assuming you can get 2/3 majorities in Congress, itself no small feat.

It's great for property rights. Which is a good thing, assuming you've a fair bit of it.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't consider everything FDR did or tried to do as necessarily good, but I'd have to go research more before I could make any decent response on that point.

As far as nationalizing things, I'm not sure it couldn't get very far. States regularly have taken over power utilities for instance with nary a whisper. I.e. I don't think the constitution would outright ban it if there was a good reason to do it.

As for amending being difficult, I consider that a good thing: the crazies who periodically have power (e.g. religious right) can't permanently enshrine horribly bad things in the constitution.

by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd check what they did on AAA for some background. Not a constitutional lawyer, but seems to me what individual states do is covered under state constitutions unless those run counter to the federal one (with the commerce clause being a big deal).

But here, you run into problems of scale (esp. acute in things like the Great Depression). And in any event, if having a third of Americans malnourished, poorly housed and clothed were not such an event as you describe, then I'd argue that there are no such events.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I too think the US Constitution is outmoded and fetishized (the latter is also valid of the 'Founding Fathers'). No work of humans is perfect, neither is the COnsitution. That it can only be appended and not changed severely limits possibilities of improving it. And when some issue is debated, it's not 'what's right', but 'what is constitutional', limitign thinking. And what Americans do instead of changing it is reinterpretation, often with very twisted semantics.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 09:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree on this idea that the U.S. constitution is outdated. It has two points strongly in its favor.

First, it is a pretty solid document of the Enlightenment period. There are flaws, but the rights-of-man and the reason-versus-religion dimensions are good, and the overall structure of government is good (better than the parliamentary system by a long shot, in my opinion).

Second, it is a straightforward statement of values rather than a prescription of points of law. That simplicity is a big reason why it's been stable for so long.

Under the U.S. system you can have a conservative government or a liberal government, while retaining essential human rights in either case. There was plenty of pushback to FDR's proposals, and there is plenty of pushback to GWB's proposals. I think that the Constitution is one of the strong points of the U.S. system.

by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
quasi-scientifically. Unlike the Federal Constitution, many state constitutions are easy to amend and, in many states, replace entirely. Alabama's constitution, for example, has been amended 770 times (!), and Georgia was the latest state to ratify a completely new document (in 1983).

Now, maybe I'm a little myopic (because New York has a really pathetic constitution), but I can't think of any state constitution that is demonstrably better than the stodgy old Federal Constitution. Yes, I'd like to see some changes (in particular an amendment guaranteeing freedom from religion), but all things considered, i think it's mostly evolved into a sensible, workable system.  

There was a lot about the dead-on-arrival EU constitution that I liked, mainly the parts about social and economic justice, but as a system of government it was, imho, far less democratic and progressive than what the U.S. has. And that, I'm afraid, is what would happen here as well; we'd trade a quirky but fairly workable system for a technocratic elite-dictated bureaucracy.

by Matt in NYC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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