One point I would make is that there is a difference between America the state, and America the nation (though of course "We the people" ultimately decide on the methodology of the state. Or do they?)
If I lambast America, it is almost always the state I am aiming at - not at individuals - especially our friends here.
But another point - most Europeans have forgotten their nationalism, except for sports. When I was a kid, when the last movie finished, we all stood for the Queen as the anthem played. Some people even stood at home when the BBC shut down for the night.
That has all gone. And which is why we find it hard to understand the role of the US Flag in everyday life. Europeans have a different take, IMO, on what individual freedoms mean. For us, it is more to be oneself, to aspire to express individual feelings, and to appreciate diversity in others. Yes, we have that 13 starred EU flag - which also sits on this masthead - but we are never going to salute it. Instead we will turn to our neighbour, hold our right hand to our heart and say - maybe - 'Salaam' which means peace. Or we could say 'Shalom' or 'Terve'. So we'd rather salute each other than a flag. You can't be me, I'm taken
Irony is one of those literary devices that doesn't always travel well. ;-) You can't be me, I'm taken
The bon mots are far more important that any notions of correctness ;-) You can't be me, I'm taken
This had never happened to me before, but of course it was also the first time I raced in Nebraska.
I was dumbfounded. Nil aon leigheas ar an ngra ach posadh
In the end with the establishment of the A-league, it was the corporate sponsors who got to decide, and so the anthem stayed. I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
There are much more datat handling possibilities than the www. To name one you probably use: email.
But there are others too.
En passant, this is also why you have almost no chance of ever having an intelligent conversation about Zionism in the U.S. Even educated Americans are unfamiliar with the most basic concepts you need to analyze it.
The US' accelerating slide into ignorance reminds me of something Orwell said about the goal of Duckspeak - to render critical thought impossible. Well, in the US we have privatized the Ministry of Truth - and our media are putting the Nazis, the Soviets, and MiniTru to shame.
Do you mean that whatever was wasn't communist (but say nationalist), or that it wasn't extermination (but say a purge), or that there was no significant post-victory bloodshed? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I pledge to allegiance, to the flag of the United States of America And to the republic, for which it stands, One nation, under God, Indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.
Did I get thatt right, mah fellow Americans? <damn> if one day I develop Alzheimer's its going to be one of the few things I'll remember, it is so deeply set in my long.term memory...<sigh> "Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
A generation ago, it was nearly impossible to get through the American public school system without learning the oath - and equally impossible to forget it after so much practice.
The wane of the pledge from American life is more tied to indifference than passion, says Barbara Truesdell, assistant director of Indiana University's Center for the Study of History and Memory. "It used to be we'd hear it at town meetings and public gatherings," she says. Now, "it's just not a part of daily life." The decline is perhaps most apparent in the classroom - particularly blue-state high schools. "I don't know of any high schools in the area in which the pledge is recited daily. It isn't here," admits a superintendent of a largely liberal suburban Boston school district who asked not to be named because of how contentious the subject can be. "If I insisted on it being recited here - which is not my plan or desire - my career would begin a quick and flaming descent."
"It used to be we'd hear it at town meetings and public gatherings," she says. Now, "it's just not a part of daily life."
The decline is perhaps most apparent in the classroom - particularly blue-state high schools.
"I don't know of any high schools in the area in which the pledge is recited daily. It isn't here," admits a superintendent of a largely liberal suburban Boston school district who asked not to be named because of how contentious the subject can be. "If I insisted on it being recited here - which is not my plan or desire - my career would begin a quick and flaming descent."
On a tangent, I was shocked (and believe me, I'm not easily shocked) to learn recently that as late as the early 1960s Jewish kids in NYC area public schools were forced to recite the Protestant version of the Our Father/"Lord's Prayer." At least, that practice is no more.
OK, I'm going to do this from memory...
I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry cow and to the Republicans for which they scam one nacho, underpants with licorice and jugs of wine for owls.
That has all gone. And which is why we find it hard to understand the role of the US Flag in everyday life. Europeans have a different take, IMO, on what individual freedoms mean. For us, it is more to be oneself, to aspire to express individual feelings, and to appreciate diversity in others. Yes, we have that 13 starred EU flag
You'll see flags in Finland on special days - it is the job of the building caretaker to have it up and down at the right time. You'll see flags if Finland win the world ice hockey championship again. But it is just a picture - something that stands for far more than a state. You can't be me, I'm taken
On 8 December 1955 the Committee of Ministers adopted this as the European flag. "Against the blue sky of the Western world, the stars represent the peoples of Europe in a circle, the symbol of unity. Their number shall be invariably set at twelve, the symbol of completeness and perfection ... just like the twelve signs of the zodiac represent the whole universe, the twelve gold stars stand for all peoples of Europe - including those who cannot as yet take part in building up Europe in unity and peace." The Council of Europe from the beginning desired it to be used by other regional organisations seeking European integration.
http://magyar.org/uploaded/images/20040331-145419_6.jpg
Very fetching!
BTW, just today I noticed that he took off the flag, when he put up Christmas lights (yes, that energy-wasting madness is creeping over here, too). *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Quite, but it's difficult in a piece like that to keep on pointing out you're aware of that, and of wanting to avoid generalising about all Americans, and of wanting to talk about progressive Americans and particularly those who comment on blogs and particularly here... I used the old "Amerika" a couple of times to signify the state, the military-industrial complex, rather than the notional nation America or the American people.
On flags and national pride -- I'm glad we don't do this in Europe. I think it's pro-gress. What I'd like is to see us have more enthusiasm and will to try to do things.
Western Europeans have this occasionally annoying tendency to forget about the rest of the continent...
And I am saying the American way of relating to the nation is specific and not to be found in Europe
Take France, add the identity as an immigrant nation and subtract the French experience of horrible victory (WWI) and defeat (WWII).
First point: you're right and I was thinking it as I wrote to DoDo.
Second point: yes, but I'm talking above about the result of these processes, meaning the way Europeans relate to the nation today.
That France has a certain historical similarity with the US in that both are nations with pretensions to universality is true, but my point in the above piece concerns how the concept of the nation is experienced by the majority of the people, how the nation is perceived. And there I think there are decisive differences.
Can you differentiate that comment with view to political allegiances? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Regarding your first point, I don't see your consideration of non-Western Europe reflected ("small minority"), unless you only considered 2004 new EU members. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Who knows. I'd imagine that those who don't vote are less political than the others - whether vaguely social-liberal young people in the thriving cities or vaguely fundy in the impoverished countryside. Though there's also increasingly the question of the effect of mass migration to Western Europe on voting patterns. That probably hurts the PO most of all - much younger than average, and somewhat more educated, and young university educated people are the PO's strongest demographic.
add the identity as an immigrant nation
I agree with the rest, but I disagree with this bit. France is just as much an immigration nation as the USA, and sees itself as one. The integration takes a totally different form (assimilation, "nos ancêtres les gaulois", etc), but that's another point. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
France is just as much an immigration nation as the USA
I think this is one of those terms that means different things to different people. In the American context, "immigrant nation" doesn't mean "a nation with a lot of immigrants," it means "a nation where (almost) everyone is descended from immigrants." In other words, part of that American national myth that redstar was talking about, i.e. "we're all immigrants." I doubt that France thinks of itself as a nation of immigrants in the same way.
I doubt that France thinks of itself as a nation of immigrants in the same way.
Because all immigrants become French, not hyphenated French. Their status as immigrants is irrelevant.
But we are a nation where (almost) everyone is descended from immigrants. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
your confusion may be that Americans that are a couple of generations away from the "old country" are usually curious and interested in where there ancestors come from. But you are totally off base in thinking you understand America on this point. this is a great example of either not understanding, or just trashing America.
I wonder too if those young people rioting last year just consider themselves French?
As to this:
If you read ET at that time or later, you'd know that the answer to that is an unambiguous and resounding YES. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
But this is absolutely not the reaction that my friends would have. In fact, it is quite common among my group of acquaintances for people to go back to their home country. I have an Indian friend who has gone back. I have another Indian friend that is retired, and spends about 40%, he and his wife, of his time in India. They have family there,,,it just is not at all surprising, and literally no one is sad for them, or thinks they've fallen off the cliff. The same with Europe. I have an English friend who thinks "America is the place to earn a living, because you're not caught up ina class system, and the economic system allows hard work to move you to the top", but, he says, "Europe is the place to retire,,,Europeans know how to live the better life, with the culture, etc." We'll see on him--his kids are still fairly young, and they seem pretty American to me,,,,I'm not sure if he and his wife will want to be away from them, and the grandkids--down the road.
I would like to someday have a place in London, and spend a significant amount of time there. It's my favorite city in the world--too bad about the prices. -:}
I could continue with these examples, because I have many--and vice versa as well,,,Americans living in Europe and staying,,,others coming back.
It is just not accurate to generalise the reactions you describe to Americans.
</snark>
My black friends think of themselves as American. My Norweigan, Italian, Irish,etc friends think of themselves as American. My Indian friends think of themselves as American.
So explain why you think this please.
Ten generations, sure - there we're talking about those who are descended from before the big 1880-1920 wave of immigration. But from then on it gets different. Perhaps not out west where the Italians and Irish and Poles no longer have any ties to the old village-like urban enclaves, but in the Northeast and the metropolitan areas of the industrial Midwest things are different. Here you get fourth generation Italian kids going wild over Italy's soccer team, waving their flags as they run through the streets. Kids who don't follow soccer, have never been to Italy, and don't speak any Italian - but they sure as hell are Italian, and Italy won.
This town is a mosaic of tribes and sub-tribes for whom their ethnic identity is an essential part of both their intense local identity and their national (American) one. Even when they move out into the suburbs they retain their ethnic identities, thus giving us phenomena like Congressman Peter King (R/Sinn Fein-NY) whose Irish Republican allegiance takes precedence over his US Republican one.
The new immigrants here have been replicating the same pattern - settling in concentrated groups, filling their neighbourhoods with markers of the old country - all as part of the process of assimilation. My impression is that this is also true of Latino and Asian immigrants in California.
Kohn suffers from a guilty conscience, because he had a fallout with Grün and feels it was his own fault. So he goes to the rabbi, tells him the story and asks for advice. "You have to say sorry!" "Do I really have to say sorry?" "Definitely." "Can I also do it on the telephone?" "Yes." Hearing this, Kohn goes home and dials Grün's number. The other end of the line answers: "Hallo?" "Hallo... is that Mr. Smith?" "No, I1m Mr. Grün." "Then sorry." *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I guess my experience in Chicago and California is that these enclaves break down over a generation or two. The German area in Chicago I believe is now Latino, with people moving out to the suburbs, or just marrying and moving. In California I live in an area that is 40% Asian (lots of countries when I say Asian) and 60% everything else. However the various China town areas do seem to maintain their Asian roots--but some of that seems business related. Like in that area in London just south of Soho,,,very Chinese/Asian it would seem, and everyone knows where to go to get various varieties of Chinese food.
Actually that is the point.
It is a country of immigration, where immigrants are expected to become French. How is that different from the USA, a country of immigrants where immigrants are expected to become Americans?
Are you saying that the way the French define being French somehow negates the fact that it is a country of immigrants? In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
France is a country of French people, regardless of your origins which, to boot, it is illegal to keep track of. Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
This discussion is about national identity - i.e. self identification. So it has to do with self perception, and the way Americans relate to the immigrant experience is very, very different than the way the French do. To take one example, the political calendar of NYC, and every other old line city, is littered with celebrations of its constituent groups - St. Patrick's Day, Columbus Day, Puerto Rican Day, gay pride day, MLK day, etc - waving their flags as they march down Fifth Ave, with every local politician jockeying for a place at the front of the parade. Affirmative action and de facto ethnic quotas have a long history here predating the Civil Rights movement and were used as a way of integrating the various groups.
I fully agree with what you say on national identity. The one thing I don't like is when Europe in general, and France in particular, is described as a place not welcoming to immigrants, which is the logical next step (which YOU did not make) of the point you state about integration. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Well I might make it, though it would be even France, not particularly France, - I think it's pretty clear that there is considerable anti-immigrant feeling in France and that there is a racial component to it - but that's obviously true in the US as well. In fact just now it's been stronger in the US, but that goes in waves in both countries so the reverse has been true as well.
I also think that Germany is substantially more unwelcoming than either France or the US - think of the Christian Democrats campaign against changing the law to grant children of long term permanent residents citizenship.
Where I have problems with France has to do with my liking of the hyphenated model, and my instinctive distaste as an American liberal for what is effectively a model very similar to the one promoted by the pro-immigration faction of the US right, albeit embedded in a very different historical context. I think that some parts of the US liberal model - namely affirmative action or actually allowing the governent and researchers to collect data based on categories of ethnicity and race - would be helpful in France, and feel that there is a bit of a kneejerk little c conservative tendency to reject such changes out of hand. Other parts, like ethnic and race based political mobilization, which has been one of the most powerful integrative forces in the US, probably aren't transplantable to France's political system and culture.
And while Americans are pretty well homogenized, don't think that people here are unaware of their immigrant background. Everyone is aware of their heritage, and while they might not know any details about what it means to be Russian, or German, or Irish, and while it might not matter on a day-to-day basis whether somebody is from one background or another, people are very much aware of it and they do take it into consideration at times of marriage, for example. "Is he Irish?" or "Is she Russian?" or "What church will they go to?" are standard considerations.
I simply do not understand how you can group France and America (both U.S. and Canada) together on this point. It is one of the (few) significant differences between our backgrounds.
Everybody knows their background, but only minorities seem aware on a day-to-day basis, and viceversa, for obvious reasons. Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
France is mostly populated with people descended from families who have lived there since pre-history, is that not correct?
That is not correct. It's been an immigration country forever. Romans, Normans, all the Celts, The English later on, and, in more recent times, Russians, Poles, Germans, Italians, Iberians, Arabs, Africans, Vietnamese, etc...
Fun fact: France has the highest number of different surnames of all countries in the planet. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
No. It is a small minority in some regions, it is even a majority in other regions (including Western ones, I'd put for example Spanish Basque lands in there). *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I enjoyed afew's diary but I would try not to read so much into the testy exchanges as evidence of differences between Europeans and Americans. Especially since Kos's site is monomaniacally interested in the Democratic Party.
I'm responding to Sven's post mainly because I think that he's on target in divorcing criticism of Americans from that of the American political elite. We do not have the sort of democracy in the US envisioned by our founding fathers. We have a corporate military culture ruled by elites. We have a perverted from of government. Why? Mainly because the corporate mass media has established power and hegemony over the political process, and serves to distort the meaning of democracy in America.
Now, this may be a cynical view of the US held only by a small percentage of voters (say, 15%) but it's an important distinction to make. If I were to generalize about Europeans I would say that because they have done a better job at keeping the corporatists and oligarchies at bay, that doesn't mean it's necessarily because European people value their freedoms more. It could come down to certain defects in forms of government, which may be more susceptible to assault by the rich and powerful. And, it could be that Europe is actually headed the same way that America has traveled in the last 40 years. Domination by corporations. I think the EU is already headed this way, ex. Monsanto's rights over consumer rights, the media's rights, etc. Greece recently tried to shore up their democracy by preventing monopolies in their media. Their new laws to prevent monopolies were shot down by the EU because they obstructed Euro media corporations from merging and acquiring smaller media. You tell me, is there a corporate encroachment going on in Europe? I actually see a lot of uniformity in European reporting which makes me suspect that the corporate factors which dominate American media have their tentacles all over European media.
As for Sven's last paragraph, I disagree in the sense that I think Americans do appreciate diversity, and in many ways they do it at a more profound level than what I've found in Europe (I can only speak to my experiences in France, Spain, Italy and Greece). Individualist tendencies also pervade, especially in places like Maine and our libertarian west.
