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Quentin, about languages. Consider this: language is often about a projection of power. As English takes hold all over the world, American universities are now doing away with a language requirement, in direct proportion with the rising usage of English elsewhere.

Meanwhile, in American private and public elementary schools, only Spanish remains (for obvious reasons) among the old group of options (when I was in school 30 years ago I had the option of taking Latin, French, Italian, German and Spanish in public school.

At a certain point in the 1980s, Russian and Japanese became very popular languages in public schools in the better educated parts of the US.

20 years later, most second language instruction is gone. But now we read articles of public schools everywhere adopting new classes in ... Chinese.

What else are we to conclude but that there is an implicit message that language study is to be undertaken as a means of financial integration, and not cultural integration.

by Upstate NY on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 03:59:19 PM EST
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I agree with everything you're saying here, but I also think that the American educational system dooms Americans to monolinguality (if that's a word), no matter what languages are offered or not offered in their schools. I had an interesting experience this past summer, when I taught a Yiddish class (don't ask how or why!) to a group of about a dozen sophisticated Manhattanites. For the first time in my life, I came to understand how terribly difficult it is for Americans to grasp the simplest concepts of language, even when they are -- as this group definitely was -- highly committed to doing so. "Now, tell me again: what exactly is a preposition?" (From someone with a PhD!) "But I'm a man, why do I have to learn 'feminine' words?" [Meaning words of feminine "di" gender like Amerike and nakht].

So I've come to believe that Americans are sadly handicapped when it comes to learning foreign languages not just because of our cultural myopia but also because of our linguistic ignorance.

by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:04:25 PM EST
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That's what happens when all the teaching of your own language is limited to spelling, and no grammar.

I am observing the same in my Czech lessons right now (only the Russian and the Spaniard understand the Grammar: the British are at a loss).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:12:10 PM EST
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Yes, I didn't want to slight anyone but my own compatriots, but UK-educated people also seem to share this "handicap." Maybe it's part of being proudly anglophone?
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:18:59 PM EST
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I think it has to do with a pragmatic approach to language instruction ("just say it even if the grammar is off and they'll understand it anyway" or "just figure out the rules as you go, now let's talk") and the fact that English has a really simple grammar to begin with, its difficulty being the spelling/pronunciation and vocabulary.

So when you try to teach a language with a simple phonetic system and straightforward spelling rules, but heavy on the grammar, heads explode. And part of the problem with teaching in this situation is that you're trying to teach both the grammar and the foreign language.

An (educated/language-aware) English speaker, would need just a crash course in English grammar (parts of speech, tenses, etc) to learn to think grammatically, and then they could learn the new language. If you're trying to teach a language (and from an entirely different family) and the concepts of grammar at the same time, I'm not surprised it was difficult.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:25:43 PM EST
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Ack, I understood Hebrew, not Yiddish. Forget about "a different linguistic family"

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:30:40 PM EST
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Yiddish might just as well have been from an entirely "different linguistic family!"  
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:35:37 PM EST
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Let me just say that Matt's experience of the American educational system is very very different than mine. I always criticized American English classes as being way too heavy on the grammar.
by Upstate NY on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 03:36:16 PM EST
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why American adults know so little about grammar. I agree, my traditional Catholic school had a lot of what was called "grammar," but as I remember it, it mainly consisted of heaping scorn on "double negatives" and rote-learning, with no audible results in later life, "lie/lay/lain" and "lay/laid/laid."

Test: ask three of your U.S. friends to explain the difference between "who" and "whom." If at least two of them don't say, "Well, whom is more formal," or "Who is the colloquial form," you have one very smart set of friends!

by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 03:54:15 PM EST
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Do you remember graphing sentences? No other educational system I know engages in that preposterous exercise.

And yes, my friends would know the difference between who and whom, and they do say "you and me" instead of "you and  I" and one even knows what an ablative absolute is!

by Upstate NY on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:08:37 PM EST
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Graphing sentences? What's that? Something like underlining usbject, object and verb?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:12:05 PM EST
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Maybe Upstate's referring to diagramming sentences?  I don't really remember exactly how to do it, but I recall vividly that it was my favorite thing in elementary school.  I'm sorry to hear it's fallen out of fashion.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:41:19 PM EST
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Thanks for the link. Upstate is at least right in my case, such diagrammatic grammar education is new to me. (Thus I can't say anything about its positiveness or negativeness.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 03:02:26 AM EST
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. My God, I spent thousands of hours of my life doing that. 4 straight years of English instruction doing that, plus more homework.

Can I have those hours back?

by Upstate NY on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 04:58:57 PM EST
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Pretty much, though you can also do it with a tree diagram, etc.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 09:30:11 PM EST
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by Upstate NY on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 05:04:07 PM EST
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Spain does engage in Graphing sentences. It's often called syntactic analysis.

The whole point of this discussion is that, if you don't have even a basic grasp of syntax, you're going to find it hard to learn a Foraign language. And God help you if you need to learn a flexive (case-based) language without understanding syntax and parts of speech.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 09:37:01 PM EST
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Migueru, I think syntax is practically in the flexible-past in public schools, from my observation.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 08:12:04 AM EST
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When our English teacher in our English language high school in Geneva decided we should do some grammar he quickly realized we didn't even have the basics. He solved that problem by switching to French grammar to explain the English version since most of us had a good grounding in that - so a native English speaker explaining English grammar in French to a majority native level English speaking class.  But I only really learned some grammar when I taught ESL in Poland after college - I realized I had to teach myself when on the first day one of the kids asked me something about phrasal verbs - something I'd never heard of before. And as for Polish grammar all I know I learned in Russian classes in college and grad school.
by MarekNYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:46:09 PM EST
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For me, learning grammar and learning names of grammar structures separates. As Indo-European languages are so different, there was no other way to learn them than with words and grammar in parallel. But I would have to look up "phrasal verb". Or "Dativ", for that matter...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:03:21 PM EST
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"But I'm a man, why do I have to learn 'feminine' words?" [Meaning words of feminine "di" gender like Amerike and nakht].

I must admit that as someone with a mother tongue that lacks genders, I still struggle with gender in Indo-European languages (witness the innumerable cases when I write "s/he" or "his/her").

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:44:55 PM EST
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you're not from Tokyo, where they not only don't have a concept of grammatical gender but also pronounce "hi" and "shi" exactly the same.
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:46:07 PM EST
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That's surprising about prepositions, because Americans are taught grammar to the exclusion of almost everything else in highschool and elementary school.

Do you Americans remember graphing sentences? Limbs shooting off for every prepositional phrase?

A Canadian friend, an excellent writer, was astounded at the knowledge of Americans when it came to grammar because in Canada, you basically read a lot in English class, are read to, and you engage in analysis. Language is supposed to come naturally. In the US, when I was growing up at least, we dissected language as though it were a science.

by Upstate NY on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 03:33:22 PM EST
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