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And I'm afraid here that the European secularists are the strong ones here.

In the context of a Danish peninsula in September last year, perhaps they were. But 20 percent of humanity (1.3 billion) are Muslim. It's the world's most practiced religion. How, after this issue has been internationalized so as to cause outrage from Indonesia to Morocco, are the European secularists "the strong ones"? Numerically and economically, they sure as hell are not.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are 800 million europeans according to the Council of Europe. That includes 70 million secular muslim turks and a few percent (up to 40 million, maybe?) other muslim immigrants.

So, compared with 1.3 Billion people, mostly in developing countries, I think Europe is economically stronger and numerically comparable.

What really, really worries me about this whole thing is that the left is on the brink of signing up to "fortress Europa" and reneging on the right of refugees (including political and religious) to obtain asylum in Europe without having to go through ideological (including religious) litmis tests. THAT is what I'm worried the European left is about ready to sacrifice. I don't want ideological litmus tests imposed on human rights.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are 800 million europeans according to the Council of Europe.

And these are all secularists? News to me.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So then the problem are not the muslims, are they?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:27:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And all Muslims were outraged?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are 800 million europeans according to the Council of Europe.
And these are all secularists? News to me.
I actually got pilloried in the cartoon debates for suggesting that secularism and freedom of speech are not necessarily fundamental to being European. So, is Europe secular and committed to free speech, or is it not? If it is, then you have 800 million on your side. It it's not, well, then you have to win your battle within Europe before going on to fight the backwards muslim immigrants.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:32:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually got pilloried in the cartoon debates for suggesting that secularism and freedom of speech are not necessarily fundamental to being European. So, is Europe secular and committed to free speech, or is it not?

A false dilemma. Secular people (let alone "secularists," your original term) are of course a mere subset of the free speech supporters. A big proportion of European Christians, say, would accept the right to lampoon Christianity. It wasn't always thus, but let's face it: Life of Brian - which makes fun and games of the Crucifixion - routinely runs on primetime TV in large European countries with nary a protest, let alone cries for cencorship. This despite the fact that even in Norway, the world's most secular country, fully 50 percent believe in God.

However, there are blasphemy paragraphs in a number of legal codes including ours. Hereabouts it is dormant, with the last prosecution, which led to acquittal, taking place in 1933. But leading Muslim spokesmen and organizations now call for reviving it.

While I doubt they will get this through, I sure don't appreciate the effort.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:01:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there have been two prosecutions in Spain on what are akin to blasphemy charges (though it's not called that) according to article 525 of the 1995 criminal code. Both led ultimately to acquittal, but the first one was initially convicted. The conviction was thrown out on the hilarious argument that "the photograph in question was intended to cause scandal, but the spelling mistakes in the accompanying text were already scandalous enough". Just to show that the apellate judges have both common sense and a sense of humour.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...even in Norway, the world's most secular country, fully 50 percent believe in God.

You forgot about the Czech Republic, Sweden and Russia. (There is East Germany too.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Norway and Sweden have state churches.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So does Russia in a way, they have an autocephalous Russian Orthodox church.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ditch Russia. I was using 1998 data, but found that a 2005 poll showed increase (?) of theism to 58%.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A recent international survey pegged Norway as the most secular in the world. I'm not going to dive for the source, but it can be googled.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:07:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Methinks you saw headlines about this. However, note that Japan is even more secular (first in five out of six measures), Norway is not so well on the creationism front, and no formerly communist countries were included. (About two thirds of the Czech profess to be atheists/don't believe in a god in several polls, the figure in East Germany is above three-quarters.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 11:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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