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"So what should that school do?"

Come off it, Jérôme, you don't expect us to take that crappy journalism seriously.

If this were a well-researched and well-written article about that language school, which established the facts and examined what was happening and listened to the different points of view, and if it then became clear that religious extremists were attempting to change the normal practice of the school in order to make it fit with their beliefs, then of course I would say they should be politely told they were free to leave if they didn't like the teaching.

But you are trying to conflate this with the cartoons (as Hans-Jürgen Schlamp does in his sneaky civilization-clash article in the Spiegel), and they are not the same thing.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on, afew, you know that these things are happening all the time now in schools and hospitals in France. How would you deal with that?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:36:01 AM EST
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I've indicated what I think. But you are conflating problems of everyday life in society, which call for discussion and no doubt clear principles -- and which above all call for encouragement of the large numbers of moderate, progessive Muslims in Europe who rightly believe they can be free to practise their religion and be integrated into European society -- with a right-wing provocation which has (deliberately) caused polarization and immense trouble.

I see a great difference between extremists (not only Muslim) challenging the way different institutions, like schools or hospitals, already work in our societies (in which case, if their demands appear to us unacceptable, we should tell them we refuse), and reactions to deliberate provocation by the xenophobic right.

What matters most to me is that we push back the extremes and promote the moderates. And that we stop feeding pernicious idiots like Philippe de Villiers whom I heard once again say this morning that French suburbs are "handed over to Islam".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:55:48 AM EST
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We're mostly in agreement, I think, but I do include finding cartoons in my paper (including those making fun of religious people) a part of my daily life.

The only way to fight off the scaremongerers like de Villiers is precisely to speak up as progressives on the topic and say that the Muslims stepped over a line (in calling for violence and in actually conducting violence) while fully acknowledging their right to say they are offended and their right to protest them peacefully.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some Muslims, not "the Muslims".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:10:34 AM EST
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Yes, you're right, sorry about that one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:12:22 AM EST
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What you say is the only way to fight off Le Pen channelers like de Villiers is pretty much what you characterize as "meekly turning the other cheek" in another comment.

As for your point about cartoons, please. Cartoons are not about to disappear. We are not in danger.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:18:53 AM EST
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Cartoons will not disappear, true. Cartoons critical of Islam in mainstream media may be another matter.

To give just one example, there's a hard-hitting cartoonist named Finn Graff working for the liberal Norwegian daily Dagbladet. This guy has a serious problem with authority; allegedly his wife and sister are tasked with erasing as many erect penises as possible from his sketches of authority figures. I remember one of his offerings featuring an elephant screwing another (which had its head draped in the Stars and Stripes) with a crucifix. This prompted a furious letter to the editor from Republicans Abroad.

Graff freely admits that he wouldn't dare draw Muhammed. But apparently that is not enough. When interviewed on TV recently, he nervously displayed an old cartoon slamming the treatment of women under Islamic law. A minaret played the part of an erect male member. Now, al-Jazeera's man in Oslo deliberately refrained from reporting this back to his HQ, since the existence of this cartoon, as he put it, would be sure to "unleash hell." This despite there being no representation of Muhammed.

Morten Kristiansen, editorial cartoonist at the country's biggest newspaper Verdens Gang, says he has often received complaints from Christians when drawing Jesus and from Muslims when drawing their religious leaders, but that in recent years the feedback from the latter has increasingly included threats. I wager you will find the same phenomenon across Europe.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:45:30 AM EST
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My answer to that is that I'm interested in outcomes. We have to learn to live peacefully and tolerantly with the Muslims among us, and, of course, vice versa. The way we can reach this is by framing and funding policies that integrate Islam as one of the religions practised here, and that encourage responsible, moderate Muslims who want integration, not conflict, and who would be happy to see their religion evolve. There are plenty of Muslims who fit that description. They are the leaven (and are feared as such by the extremists outside Europe, who don't want new ideas to seep back).

This kind of process may take a little time. It's already under way. But we must support the movement. I've seen (TV) moderate Muslims in Denmark complain that the cartoon controversy has set them back and they have lost influence. A young woman who is working and dressing in a European manner no doubt has a daily struggle to persuade the older, more conservative elements in her family that this is OK. Now she's not being listened to, because the Prophet has been insulted (fundamental symbol), and for her it's now go back to the beginning and start again.

The day will come when Muslims themselves will be doing the cartoons, and I'll be hugely happy to see that and to support the cartoonists. In the meantime, what purpose (other than those of the xenophobic right) do we serve if we seek to face down the extremists by insisting on our absolute right to caricature sacred aspects of Islam? We have won the freedom to do that as regards our own historical religion (and I support that freedom), but let's encourage those who will make Islam evolve so that they will one day have that freedom. For the moment, is it so huge a problem to lay aside the rather arrogant notion that our caustic wit is going to change a religion to which we don't have personal or historical links, and to exercise some understanding and restraint?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:33:26 AM EST
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