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Sorry, I cannot agree with you that Christianism is nothing but a Judaïst offshot.
When your read the scriptures, you see that the image of God Judaïsm conveys is different from the one the Evangiles convey.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Colman was speaking "historically" rather than "religiously." (The presence of the Old Testament in the Christian Bible is maybe reasonable evidence that Christianity has historical roots in Judaism.)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:46:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I was talking from the outside. Judaism doesn't even portray the same god now it used to.

If you're not Muslim you tend to group all the sects together, if you're not Jewish you look at them as one. If you're not Christian you group them together. If you're none of the above they all look quite similar. Same foundational books and prophets, same basic beliefs, same debates over history.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:51:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about I just shut up... ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
same debates over history.

By which I mean that they have gone through very similar intellectual developments at different times in history.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:56:21 AM EST
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Christianity (catholic church at least) is ,as far as by fellows antrhopologists symbolic friends tell me a mixture of three traditions:

  • Judaism : In Prophets and one unique god
  • Of roman and greek traditions of muliple gods.. transfered in to the huge lists of saints that most of the Christians have.
  • The animic mother Earth virgin with the use of a Virgin Maria as the Earth-fertility mother....of course in the virgin version, this is, fertility trough the opposite of fertility (or the extreme point since having kids without sex is... remarkable).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude
by kcurie on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 01:04:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but that still does not explain two things which remain puzzling about Christianity.

1) It is the religion of the underclass (unlike any other ancient religion, it needed 200 years to become "established" - it was not a religion of the ruling upper class) - this has dogmatic consequences till today - it is not a state religion like Islam, or Judaism, Buddism or Hinduism which all originated within the ruling classes of the society they came from.

2)As much as sacrificial traditions are common in other religions, however twisted you think the death and resurrection story is, it is unique in its interpretation as death for others, so they don;t have to die. (at least as far as I know)

by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. It may have started out as a religion of the underclass, but the modern Christianity (Council of Nicea etc.) is very much the product of appropriation by the ruling classes. (Notable representatives include Emperor Constantine and a host of medieval popes.)

  2. Maybe it all depends on the phrasing. I've heard a different expression in some Christian circles: "he died that we might live."

From that perspective we can see parallels with sacrifices in other religions, where a god(dess) dies to end winter, allowing humans to survive...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ad one - of course you have Nicea et all. but none of the texts were written at at time of superiority, or military success, or ruling. OT yes (although mainly through out the redaction process), but not NT.

Therefore there remains an uneasy tension between the ruling classes and Christianity, due to this background.

I am not making a value judgement here - i am simply pointing out a difference that is often overlooked, by equating Christians with the ruling class.

It has major consequences for example for the question of separation of Church and State - or living in a society that has different set of laws.

Ad two - I have to look into soteriology again - it is so long ago...

by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If there is any doubt that at least Catholicism is not the religion of the underclass, just consider the ferocity with which Wojtila and Ratzinger fought liberation theology, and the prospects for another conservative papacy to follow (this time with a young pope, to rule for decades).

No wonder evangelical groups are having a field day proselitizing in Latin America. Catholicism has failed the downtrodden masses.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:16:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can you tell, I am neither a catholic, nor come from that tradition....
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I did guess you're a German Lutheran... But still, I don't see Lutheranism as the religion of the underdog either...

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am United. Heh, have you ever come across one of those?
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know about Unitarian Universalists in the US. You see, religion in Europe in invisible, but in the US it is pervasive. So I know more about US religious denominations than about European ones.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if you were from Germany and a member of a United Church, you probably wouldn't know....

in 1817 the then Prussian King was a Calvinist who wanted to have Eucharist with his Lutheran wife(or the other way round), but could not - their churches did not allow that, so he drafted a confessional and set up the Prussian Union. a not very successful amalgamation of Lutheranism and reform traditions.

Basic democratically all the churches in Prussia had to vote in their synods to introduce the mainly liturgical changes in their churches which took a couple of decades, but at least the king could have his Eucharist. So all the churches that are on the territory of the former Prussia are nominally United. But some are still more Lutheran.

The only "important" United Theologians are Schleimacher and Juengle in this century

(Not until the Leuenberger Concordie in 1973 did Reformed, and Lutherans share Eucharist)

by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also I am not disputing that after Nicea, Christianity has had a very successful story of unholy alliances, of which the rejection of liberation theology is only of of the more recent victims. But liberation theology WAS possible, which proves my point about the inherent tension within Christianity.
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The tension I am concerned about is between religion and church. Damn all gurus. True spiritual leaders would tell their would-be followers that they don't need spiritual leaders.

In this respect Luther was a true spiritual leader, as he advocated that the faithful actually read the Bible (so it should be translated) and that services be carried out in the vernacular.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I don't see how this is unique to Christianity, which is what you earlier claimed?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:19:16 PM EST
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I drafted something here, but since I am still developing this thought, you will have to be more patient with me - I hope that is alright.
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I feel a little bit uncomfortable with putting Wojtyla and Ratzinger on the same level. We do not know what Ratzinger will accomplish, we know what John Paul the 2nd did.
I do not question that he took quite a conservative stance on some topics, but on the other hand, his contribution to the fall of the iron curtain cannot be denied. Leaving religion aside, he was a great Statesman, ie he did a very good job as a representative of the Catholic Church, which is a secular institution.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 10:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ratzinger was Wojtila's right-hand man for over 20 years. He was appointed to chair the "Congragation for the Doctrine of the Faith" (aka the Inquisition). Ratzinger is one of the most important theologians alive, and he was the most important theologian in the Vatican under JPII.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 10:28:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I was saying is not that Ratzinger has no track record within the Vatican, my point is that he still lacks political track record as a statesman. As to whether he is a hard liner, there is no doubt about that.
On the other hand, one could argue that hard liners were bound to take the lead within the Catholic Church if only to be credible towards Muslim assertiveness.
This is not something I approve of, but once again, Churches (or whatever you name them) are secular institutions in charge of ensuring that the religion they claim to represent does not extinct. That's all this is about, not about faith.  

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 10:35:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Clamping down on liberation theology (and on other liberal theologians such as Hans Kueng) was not a state issue but a theological issue, and in that area Ratzinger is not free of responsibility in what Wojtila did or did not do. That was my point.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 10:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree with you.
Seem to have improved my "understanding-what-the others-mean" skills lately, even if a lot of work remains to be done :)
Starting from scratch, an exponential learning curve is all but impressive though.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 10:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps I am misunderstanding.

Maybe you could give an example of what you mean by "an uneasy tension between the ruling classes and Christianity?"

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The aforementioned Liberation Theology.

Is the easiest answer.

Quakerism, Amish . probably more but have to think about it.

by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...is that they can always hijack the faith of the under classes and transform it to their advantage. Case in point: see Migeru's example.

We're back to Class Wars...

by Nomad on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To clarify, I don't think he meant "offshoot" to imply that Christianity is "nothing but an sect/faction" just that this is the main monotheistic family in the modern world, and the roots of both Christianity and Islam can be traced into the Judaic tradition. By contrast, other religions are not related in the same way to Judaism (e.g. Hinduism, Buddhism) but may be to each other.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's more or less what I meant. I was just being slightly meaner about it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:55:17 AM EST
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I agree. And please don't shut up.
Write suggestions for my next Gone with the windmill instalment.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 11:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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