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I'm either doing a really bad job of writing today or you're reacting to someone else again. Probably the former.

What I meant was the believer accepts the modern devaluation of myth, applies it to their religion, says that myth is valueless, my religion is valuable, so my religion isn't myth - it's literally true.

Your point is exactly the one the fundamentalists miss.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the believer accepts the modern devaluation of myth, applies it to their religion, says that myth is valueless, my religion is valuable, so my religion isn't myth

This seems pristine clear to me Colman, and thoroughly reflects my position. Could not have put it in a better way even if I had tried.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:01:44 AM EST
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So you accept your religion and all it's texts as literal truth?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:03:39 AM EST
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Exactly the opposite. I accept that some of the myths may not be true, but I don't mind. Taking everything at face value would be foolish.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:07:08 AM EST
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The believer takes the ancient myth and reckons their relevance to his modern belief/religion may be limited : that does not demean the belief.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:08:54 AM EST
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Which is not what the fundamentalist does, of course.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:09:39 AM EST
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Completely lost now : is that what fundamentalists really do ???

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:13:51 AM EST
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Actually, you're not accepting the first step, really. You're accepting that myths are ok.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:10:19 AM EST
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help someone ! :) It seems I cannot write proper English anymore. I do not agree on the fact that myths are necessary because some people (the weaker) cannot live without them, that was what Karl Mark meant when he talked about religion being like opium (to alleviate suffering and that stuff) whereas the stronger can do without religion. To me that is not only rubbish but paves the way to fundamentalism.

Being a believer or not is not about choice, trust me ...

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:18:07 AM EST
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You are perhaps conflating Marx' and Nietzsche's critiques of religion? For the former, it's a matter of predicament; for the latter, of character strength.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]


When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:27:15 AM EST
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I've been incredibly careful not to say that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:27:01 AM EST
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I don't mind, really.
What I mind is having the fundamentalist label applied to me.

Fundamentalist Catholics do not acknowledge Vatican 2, for which they theoretically should be excommunicated if the religious dogma was strictly applied, which is not something I favour.
There is nothing in the New Testament stating that divorced people cannot attend the communion, still this has been the case for a long time, not to mention the fact that people who committed suicide were considered doomed, which is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.
These are dogmas produced by the Church as a secular institution.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:36:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nobody applied that label to you.

I'm not sure that rejecting Vatican II qualifys you as fundamentalist, though there's a whole lot of batshit crazy stuff that the fundamentalist Catholics believe in. Including restoration of the European monarchies in some sections.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:38:39 AM EST
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Nobody applied that label to you.

here, here (I have lived in britain for too long....
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:44:28 AM EST
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That is a pretty accurate decription of fundamentalist thinking. the assumption that myths are o.k and retain their pre-modern wholiness by ignoring reality
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:18:37 AM EST
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But I never said that myths were OK !!!!

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:22:18 AM EST
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Urk. Right. Time to back off and try that again I think.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:23:27 AM EST
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OK, I'm responding to:

Exactly the opposite. I accept that some of the myths may not be true, but I don't mind. Taking everything at face value would be foolish.

The point is that the myths have value and religious significance even if they're not literally true. It doesn't matter that the book of Genesis is a myth: it has religious value anyway. It doesn't matter that the detail of Christ's life may or may not be true: it still has significance and value.

Remember I don't mean myth here as a pejorative.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:26:24 AM EST
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I agree on that. I seem to find it difficult to discriminate between the various concepts used here. Sorry about the misunderstandings and the inconvenience caused.
What I stick to is that it is barbaric to stage wars in the name of God (any God), and in that I claim that religion should remain a private issue, not a tool to justify conquest and quest for power. This in an ideal world, of course.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:42:04 AM EST
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I thought I had answered to Colman. Sorry if I missthreaded
by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:38:04 AM EST
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No pb. There are so many intersecting posts that even the parent link does not help much.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:44:53 AM EST
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What I meant was the believer accepts the modern devaluation of myth, applies it to their religion, says that myth is valueless, my religion is valuable, so my religion isn't myth - it's literally true.

modern devaluation of myth - check
applies to my religion - check
says that myth is valueless - no, rephrases, reapplies and attempting to regain the the myth to make it valuable again
my religion is valuable - check
my religion uses mythology - check
my religion isn't myth - check

it is literal - no it is not.
because the myth has been regained the outside support of literalism is not necessary.

by PeWi on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 10:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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