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I don't know what your point about Bush was either. We're obviously talking past each other.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 05:57:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
okay: my point was that defining was is "offensive" is like defending what is "patriotic". Some of it is obvious, and should not be discussed by anyone in good faith. But after that you enter a grey area where some people are going to have a more restrictive (or extensive, depending on your point of view) definition - and that becomes an ideological struggle.

I am saying that some Muslims are using their "ofenseability" (and the fact that it is something they have the sole right to define) to extract from us behavior which deviates significantly from what our values would suggest.

Bush is  stifling free speech in the name of patriotism by branding people that criticise him as traitors and objective allies to enemies. These Muslims are doing the same - stifling free speech in the name of their religious practise by branding people that criticise them as intolerant and insulting.

Maybe you think that the criticism is unwarranted, in poor taste, or maybe you even disagree with it, but do you deny the right for it to be made?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, defining what is offensive to me is up to me.

Defining what is patriotic... well, that's probably up to the fatherland or the nation, and then we get into the discussion of who, if anyone, speaks for the fatherland or the nation.

Once I say something has offended me, it's up to other people to decide if they want to accomodate me or not. Maybe we don't want to accommodate muslims.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And maybe some Muslims are unsure if they should be offended...

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/archiv/03.02.2006/2328985.asp
(in German I´m afraid)

While we Muslims are constantly demanding equality of rights and accusing the West of applying double standards, we ourselves are turning into fascists who want special rights here, there and everywhere. If caricatures of the Christian prophet Jesus are possible in Europe, then they should also be allowed for the prophet Mohammed. Why should we we granted special treatment: is our blood redder than the others'?

The author (a 29 year old German citizen of Iranian origin) asked his full name not to be published in the internet. I wonder why?

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a bit of difference in magnitude, though, between the two cases you cite. Bush attempts to label those who disagree with him as traitors, but nobody has been convicted of that and there are plenty of officers in the military who think and say that what he's doing is at least misguided, if not worse.

Meanwhile, the Islamists not only "label" these cartoonists as blasphemers, but follow it up with rifle attacks and physical injury.

by asdf on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 09:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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