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I actually bought the argument that Kerry would be more dangerous than Bush because he would actually stop the unravelling of the web of international alliances that help the US maintain its position at the centre of the international system(s).

You mean you actually dream of the Cheney/Bolton desired vision of the world coming true? (You really should be careful of what you wish for)

by MarekNYC on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 11:32:51 AM EST
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I mean I was afraid Kerry would be more likely to drag Europe into the next imperialist adventure. Had he won, everyone would have breathed a sigh of relief, gone to sleep, and woken up 4 years later mired in Iraq, or somewhere else.

I don't think Cheney and Bolton can dismantle the existing international institutions. What would unravel is the web that keep the US at the center of the world system. The neocons see the rest of the world as a burden, while we are in effect propping up the US economy and financing the Iraq war.

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 11:43:05 AM EST
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I did know what you meant but made my point in a rather snarky fashion.  That is, I disagree with you on what the consequences of the US centered international system going from badly weakened (courtesy of Cheney et. al.) to dead would be.  

China has an absolutist old style sovereignty is king, what people do in their own spheres is nobody's business vision of the world. Same goes for Russia. Japan is leaning toward America. India is torn between a Chinese approach and an alliance with the US. The difference between a Clintonian, muscular liberal internationalism (my personal preference), and EU view of the world is means, not ends - and the liberal internationalists do take Europe's views on means into account.  Your dream would leave everything Europeans hate about American foreign policy intact, and their own desires for the world outside Europe itself in tatters. It would be a world where only national interests matter, human rights and economic justice would mean absolutely nothing. Think of how the US, France, and the USSR played in Africa during the Cold War - that's what you'd get all around the world.

by MarekNYC on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 12:04:48 PM EST
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You think having the US vacate the center is the same thing as killing the international system? In that you agree with Cheney/Bolton, and I beg to disagree... But that may well be wishful thinking.

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 12:16:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Besides, Kerry wanted to follow Bush's policies "better" (as in, send 40,000 more troops to Iraq!) instead of following "better policies". Or at least that's what he campaigned on.

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 11:44:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, to be fair to Kerry, once invasion and occupation is already fait accompli then one semi-plausible strategy for making life better for Iraqis (at that early point in time, I would say it is too late now) involved massive investment of both money and troops to really try "nation building."
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 01:25:10 PM EST
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The window for that was the few months between the end of the invasion and the start of the insurgency in earnest. Already in 2004 Iraq was in a state of guerrilla insurgent war with mounting losses for US troops. In 2005 the conflict morphed into an undeclared sectarian civil war (undeclared as it was under cover of anti-occupation insurgency). Last week, when the sectarian violence flared up over the bombing of the Samarra shrine, US troops in Samarra were told to stay in their barracks in order not to inflame the crowds even more, or make themselves targets. As Juan Cole put it, this shows just ho useless western troop presence is right now (useless when not counter-productive).  

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 01:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed, the blood bath could have been avoided.

But... the Bush MO relies on a combination of evil and incompetence, so as soon as the attack plan was in place the chances of a good outcome began to shrivel towards non-existence.

And someone more competent and less evil, like Clinton, would never have invaded in the first place. Even if Kerry had won in 04, it was too late to rescue the situation by then.

The non-evil and (arguably) competent thing to do at this point is to get the US out and install a UN peacekeeping force.

Meanwhile back in the US it's a kind of reverse Sovietization, politically and culturally, and also economically. The NeoCons apparently had such a good time persuading themselves that defence spending bankrupted the USSR that they've decided to try the same tactic on their home audience.

I think we may need to get used to the idea that if the Bush Plan continues and oil prices start spiking regularly, the US won't be able to afford anything like its current levels of military presence. An economy implodes when the costs of production and transportation are far higher then possible profit margins. At that point food stops being grown and transported and everything gets very unpleasant very quickly. Keeping aircraft carriers afloat may prove difficult when no one is being paid.

I'm hoping that an inward-looking and retrospective Christian Fascistocracy isn't the most likely outcome, but without a change of direction it probably is.

And ironically Europe is best placed to fill the gap. Not militarily, but certainly economically and perhaps also politically. I think there's more political and social resilience here, and probably more willingness to deal with discomfort when aiming for a soft landing. (Although I could easily be very wrong about that last part.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 27th, 2006 at 04:33:41 PM EST
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