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Is there even an US? How about all the noise that the Christian Democrats (and the Vatican!) made in 2004 over whether the EU constitution should mention that Europe is a Christian continent?

There is not an US and there is not a THEM, and freedom of speech is not the value that all Europeans hold most dear either as some have said (there is not a single such value, since there is not a single US).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 08:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I kept the quotes on "US" and "THEM".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 08:23:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just thought the divisions within "US" needed to be stressed.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 08:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We agree.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 08:28:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I have to say I am a little surprised, if you mean that freedom of speech is not extremely important in Europe. The paragraphs about freedom of speech in both the UN declaration of human rights, and the European charter of human rights, which actually is stricter in upholding this universal human right, is of lesser importance ?

I am of the conviction, and strongly so, that there is a reason these declarations/charters is viewed in the international community as the most important treaty for much of the work of the UN, and certainly the European council, and the European court of human rights.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Geir E Jansen on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 05:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't said that freedom of speech is not extremely important. On the other hand, I object to people coming out and saying "This is what Europe is all about" or "this is the key value that defines Europeanness", as if we didn't have large homegrown reactionnary forces within Europe, or different countries didn't have different ways to actualize international treaties about rights.

In this whole debate I have not said that there is not a right to free speech, but that rights need to be exercised responsibly, and that JP had an axe to grind and were being disingenous. Another thing that has come out of this is that I have actually had a closer look at the Spanish constitution and (today) at the section of the Criminal Code dealing with crimes relative to the exercise of fundamental rights and public freedoms. It doesn't seem as clear-cut as some would have us believe.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 06:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't said that freedom of speech is not extremely important.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Geir E Jansen on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 06:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, tell me how this: freedom of speech is not the value that all Europeans hold most dear is factually incorrect.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 06:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry for posting the quote, before a got to comment it. Anyway here is the comment. We seem to agree on the point that freedom of speech is extremely important, but I disagree with you in your statement that this value, if not the key value, certainly is one of the key values of what is to be defined as European or Europeanness.

Not in the sense that it is exclusively European, but that it is one of the core elements on what the European cooperation is build upon, and what both in legal terms, and socially is established as a common "European ethical fundament", one of the lessons of WWII.

On the charters of fundamental human rights, there has not been much room for manoeuvres by individual governments, of course the follow-up to implement, is another story.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Geir E Jansen on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 07:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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