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Your elaborate argument contains many arguments that are undoubtedly true, but ultimately, when an educated Muslim presented in the most respectful way a fictional argument that cast barely a shadow on the life of the Prophet - I am of course referring to the Salman Rushdie case - he was promptly condemnbed to death and riots ensued.

Had there been a Rushdie Embassy in Syria, it surely would have been burned too.

You simply fail to understand (it seems to me) that to many, this is primarily a fight between progress and stagnation, enlightenment and obscurantism, a fight which truly is occurring within the Muslim world - westerns cartoons, mores (porn, etc.) and science are just a flashpoint.

Therew ewil be far mire flashpoints as the Muslim world is unavoidablt dragged, against the will of some, as the saying goes: kicking and screamning, into the 21st century.

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 02:44:24 AM EST
Lupin, this is plain clash-of-civilization talk. Is that what you mean? We are going to drag the Muslim world kicking and screaming into the 21st century? Really?

If the Muslim world evolves, it will be Muslims who will bring that about, not you and me. And the current drawing up of battle lines does absolutely nothing to help evolving, progressive Muslims, and everything to throw red meat to the traditionalist extremists.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:35:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"We" are going to do it because of the very fact of our existence. We're not on different planets and there is no Prime Directive. It's happened before and it will happen again. Scissors break rock.

This is really the expression of an internecine Muslim fracture. The cartoons are only the flashpoint.

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:05:46 AM EST
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Frankly, I think this pollyannish. I think it is evidence of deeper European/western vs. Islamic world clash. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find people in the Islamic world who think these cartoons were a good thing. Now that doesn't mean that 90% is out on the street burning embassies and calling for revenge either. But as the above comments I source show, people - moderates, progressives, fundamentalists - were generally offended. And some of them have gone way too far. But I think the divide is more serious and long-term than you'd like to believe.

We might, indeed, be in a clash of civilizations.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:14:21 AM EST
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Are you responding to another post than mine? Because I see nothing in what you just wrote above that describes, responds or applies to what I said. To say I'm nonplussed is an understatement.
by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:18:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I'm saying - see below - is that I don't think there is really a Civil War in the Muslim world as you understand. At least in the Islamic Middle East. What you have is a civilization with fundamentally different assumptions about how the world works.

This is why I'm reluctant to so strongly champion Jyllons-Posten, even though ultimately I know I have to. Because to do so acknowledges the unbridgability of the divide. Acknowledges that I am in the west and values its traditions, and have to defend them when push comes to shove. And recognizes that real understanding is just not possible right now.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you can value Islamic traditions by placing a high value on the West's traditions of freedom.  The critical separation -- and the reason for why I do not subscribe to the "All Cultures Are Equal" view -- is that they can practice their values in our society, without fear of a government killing them or throwing them in jail.  We have the freedom to practice (or to not practice) whatever faith we like and criticize faiths as we see fit.

The same freedom does not apply in the Middle East.  The divide will be closed in the (probably distant) future, but, in large part, it's not our divide to close, in my opinion.  Religious intolerance, backed by the power of the state, is not an idea that will spread very far.  The right to say and do what you like, however, is such an idea.  I don't accept criticism on this topic from the thugs in the Saudi royal family, or from any other repressive regime based on centuries-old religious law.  Laws that treat all people as equals are superior.

I think we in the West also, especially on the left, tend to talk about racism in a way that gives the other side a great deal of room to argue and restricts our side.  (It's a principle that professors teach in debate.  Always show your opponent's side in the best possible light.)  We can, and should, talk about racism, and fight it constantly, but let's also remember that bigotry is not a Westerners-Only Club.  Quite the contrary.  The West, though guilty of disgusting behavior such as the slave trade, has fought bigotry.  We don't tell people how to live their lives, so long as they respect the rights of others.

The reaction from the Muslim world has been one of intolerance towards our values.  It has been loaded with bigotry.  And that is why, I think, we needed to draw a line in the sand on this issue.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 11:34:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bigotry is more present in the Islamic world, but bigotry is not the same thing as racism (if you'll allow these two words to stand in for a larger point). What I mean is that racism is a system where one has power, and uses bigotry as a means of exercsing and maintaining that power. Bigotry is ignorance and prejudice against others, defined as outsiders. Racism is the use of this bigotry in terms of maintaining and exercising power. And this is the difference.

As to your point about authoritarianism and religion, I think this relationship is being exploded right now. Not by the protests, but by the fact that democratic elections right now in the middle east favor more illiberal and more theocratic forces than the authoritarian/tyrannical forces which grew out of originally idealistic premises of anti-colonialism, third world autonomy, pan-Arabism, and socialism, which they are replacing. Mubarak, the successor to Nasser, being slowly replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood. The relatively (and originally quite) secular Fatah being replaced by Hamas. Saddam Hussein, legacy of the pan-Arabist Baath Party being replaced by Shi'ite (and now) Sunni Islamists. And so on. I don't think the dynamic will be and is any different in Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Finally, I think your assumption that somehow the Arab or even the broader Islamic World is destined to adopt western values or even enlightenment values, I'm not at all sure. Little in history suggests this inevitable. Its a conceit of a particular moment in history of a particular group of people. This isn't to say that they won't in some way adopt such values, but I don't think it is all clear they will either.

I don't really think China, or Russia, or Africa, or even Japan have really done so. They just don't have an immediate beef with us, or at least a beef that manifested itself so clearly. But they, I do, think represent this potential.

Finally, this means that I think it is foolish and counterproductive for us to expect or demand that they do adopt Western values. The kind of thinking many here are exhibiting making this assumption is what led us into the Iraqi train wreck.

 Of course, this means that they can't expect we will cater to what they want either, especially not within sovereign states. But its up to them what they want to do "at home," frankly. They have to sort their affairs out for themselves, which I'm sure, they can do over time.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:22:18 AM EST
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I should say that what they do does matter to the extent that violent attacks are made and unreasonable demands are launched.

It is certainly of our interest that any kind of consensus that emerges from the Islamic world is willing to peacefully and respectfully interact with others. This is an important point.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:32:41 AM EST
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I do feel it is in some ways are responsibility to close. What do I mean by this?

Well, certainly not adopting Sharia law or even anything approaching it within, say, Denmark.

But to say we shouldn't know or try to understand the sensibilites and cultural traditions (in a broad anthropological sense) in the Islamic world is silly. There is - although I think it is changing somewhat - very little understanding of what the Islamic and/or Arabic world are actually like and what people there think, how they subjectively understand there world.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:39:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't use the word Civil War myself, but there is a fracture. I mean, between those who wish to move towards a more progressive society (while retaining core Islamic values, as, as much the US is a Christian Nation) and those who remain mired in a static, dogmatic past.

The fracture "explodes" when the past-lovers feel (rightly so) threatened that their world is crumbling, is being eroded by the contagion of the forces of modernity.  They then lash back.

It happened before and it will surely happen again, repeatedly, as the Musalim world grows increasingly connected with the rest of the planet.

(I'm not entirely without first-hand knowledge, through friends from North Africa and having written a series of stories featuring the Ottoman hero Dragut.)

 

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 12:59:06 PM EST
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I'm seeing your point more clearly now. I agree.

But I think, also, it is important to remember that this kind of tension takes a long time to resolve and will have to occur from Islamic folks arguing it out amongst themselves and reaching some new kind of consensus that makes sense with them their cultural traditions. I don't think you'd disagree.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:25:21 AM EST
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This is basically what has happened in China, Japan, etc. and is to some extent happening right now in Latin Europe. And for that matter Europe and the US also.

Change often leads to reaction, which I think the rise of the Chrisitan right and political conservatism, more generally, is as well. In many ways, I see this trend as a similar - albeit much milder - result of increased globalization, mediatization (?), "connectedness," erosion of community autonomy and isolation, etc..

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:28:42 AM EST
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I think I might by myself a nice slab of Danish cheese the next time I go to the supermarket, because I think it is unfortunate that a small country such as this should become the target of worldwide outrage and economically meaningful boycotts. Denmark's values are frankly much like my own, and I think the US could it some ways benefit from learning from them.

Still, I know in doing this, I am taking a side in a conflict which is civilizational in nature. And that is not something I do with pleasure.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rock breaks scissors, actually.  Scissors cut paper.  Or are you not referring to "Rock-Paper-Scissors"?  (Ah, the games of my youth.)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 11:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't fail to understand that. I just don't think this angle is the only angle there is to the story. Really there are at least two separate phases  (separated by 5 months or so) and a number of competing narratives involved. It is truly a fascinating event, if you take a step back for a second. Really, I think the first phase - the initial publication and the recent history of immigration and integration and the debates surrounding it - is different from the second phase, where "mobs" are demanding I don't quite know what, burning embassies and such. In the first phase, I think we need to be careful not to interpet this solely as an issue of free speech and religion. In terms of the second phase, I think we need to be certain not to give into unreasonable demands.

Also, I don't think this is quite the same as the Rushdie story, for reasons I suggest above. That Rushdie's book was a legitimate and very sophisticated attempt to reimagine Islam from someone from within the Islamic tradition. These cartoons - at least some of them - were half-assed attempts that were designed to offend. They weren't designed to advance discourse or to challenge fundamental beliefs in a serious way, and they weren't drawn by people who know much about Islam. While I stand with Denmark and free speech, I also don't think we should thus elevate these cartoons to the level of the Satanic Versus either.

Another thing I would point out is that the kind of Christianity that is ascendant in much of the world is also in many ways fundamentally illiberal and anti-modern. Especially in places like Africa. With the collapse of Marxism and related third world liberation ideologies, fundamentalist religiousity has come to fill the void. Islam in some places, Christianity in others.

Indeed, I'm skeptical of the ability of Islam as it is understood by a majority in the Middle East and liberalism to be compatible. The recent elections throughout the Middle East have proven this. The fact - it seems to me - is that more democracy means less liberalism.

Liberalism - broadly understood - is not on the march. It is embattled throughout much of the world. And this understandable in a situation of high poverty, political instability, and its attendant problems. When the lights are off and the trash is piling up and you don't have a job, freedom of speech becomes a less important issue - people will trade these luxuries for belief systems that can provide any semblance of order.

None of this thus means that we in nations with strong liberal traditions should thus compromise these traditions. Absolutely not. But it is also useful to take a step back and think of the big picture as well.

For a really good post that sums up my feelings, see Josh Marshall's latest.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:03:54 AM EST
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Re the Satanic Verses, I fully agree with what you say. But I'm not the one treating the cartoons as if they were the same. The radical muslims are. In effect, they're the ones equating sophomoric ignorant infidel humor with carefully phrased reflective thought by one of their own, rewarding both with death sentencdes.

That is the best proof IMHO of the fact that, in the greatest scheme of history, this is not "our" problem but an internecine Muslim fracture between enlightenment/reformation forces (which probably think the whole thing is beneath notice in the case of the cartoons and praiseworthy in the case of Rushdie) and obscurantist/stagnation forces who desire a progress-less, static world.

The flashpoint is the casrtoons today, but it could have been anything, in arts of science. A Mahometan shroud of turin-like discovery, dead scrolls things, anything really.

My point has less to do with freedom of expression, liberalism, etc. than it has to do with evolution vs stagnation.  One might argue that the West has gotten itself willingly dragged into an unstated Islamic Civil War for the last decade or so.

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I'm much less sanguine here.

I think many in the West, especially since 9/11, have tried to reassure ourselves that there really is a silent majority that wants "modernity," "liberalism," etc. in the Islamic world, especially in the Middle East. Indeed, I think in some ways this is the assumption many who favored the Iraq War believed. I'm not at all sure this is the case, and the nature of this conflict right now demonstrates that we are two civilizations speaking from different assumptions. Certainly, there are liberals/"modernists" in the Islamic world, but if recent election results are any indication, they are a distinct minority. I mean: who are the big shots in Iraq right now: the Iraqi Muslim brotherhood, Ayatollah Sistani, Muqtada Al-Sadr. Islamists consitute a super majority in the Iraqi parliament. Same thing in Palestine. Same thing in Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood would have won a strong majority if a fully free and legitimate election were held.

Really, if you allow me to use a perhaps stretched analogy, what you have in the Middle East vis-a-vis the West is a situation a bit like you had amongst whites in the Jim Crow South during, say the first half of the 20th century, vis-a-vis blacks. There is/was, in both cases, a group of citizens who are "liberals" but they are weak and marginalized minority. What you have is really have in both situations are groups that disagree on tactics, but not on basic ideology.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
there is an unwritten assumption in this post which I think is naive and dated. That there is somehow an end point to history/human existence, and that the Muslim problem is that they just don't "get" it yet.

I think if we look back in time, throughout human history and across global societies, the story is of humanity is not necessarily one of progress or coalescence around a shared set of values. Case in point is Russia's slow slide back into authoritarianism. Or the "inexplicable" fact China is not democratic despite its tremendous economic progress. Or the fact that the ascendant ideology in the Middle East right now is islamism, not some kind of more secular alternative. Or the fact that there are 10s of millions of Americans who right now literally think Jesus Christ is going to return to earth in their life time after a battle of armageddon - not to mention the 100s of millions globally who think this. We only worry about the "inexplicablitiy" of the Islamic situation right now, because it is challenging are values directly. But all these others - and many other situations I could mention - fundamentally challenge what I would argue is a concept of world development distinct to late 19th through 1960s western thought that enlightenment values are inevitably the end point of history at which all will arrive. That science will triumph over superstition, that secularism will triumph over reason, etc.. These things aren't going away, though.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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