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the core of the problem is not that Muslims want to make us acknowledge the supposed tastelessness of the cartoons, it is that they want us not to publish these things, not as a courtesy to them, but as an obligation

...and we didn't accept that obligation. (Making public apologies is no such obligation.) Rasmussen could have told this to the 11 ambassadors instead of snubbing them, alongside with acknowledging the insulting nature. The above is not the core of the problem. The re-publications were pure posturing.

When I criticize the anti-French bias...

I think Migeru saw you not noticing Danish bias.

These cartoons are pretty tame, frankly

You are not the one to decide that. And to repeat our point, it's not the cartoons alone, it's the context and motivation too.

So the appropriate thing would have been for JP to publish a reply by a representative of the muslim community, explaining why they found such images distasteful or inappropriate, and informing readers that this would not be done in the Muslim word, and that they hoped that the Danes would extend them that courtesy even here in Denmark. And hey, it might even have worked.

On that, fully agreed. And this should have been done back in September already.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 01:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are not the one to decide that. And to repeat our point, it's not the cartoons alone; it's the context and motivation too.

Well, first of all, yes it is up to me and any other individual to decide that, as free and independent individuals.  And this is exactly the point Jerome and many of us are emphasising, that no one should be allowed to decide what we are allowed to say or do as long as it is within the legal framework of a society. By saying this you are depriving individuals their right to have an opinion and stating it.  I could illustrate this by saying who are you or any other individual (in this case Muslims included), to decide whether I am competent or even allowed to have an opinion on this matter?

The ban on depicting Muhammed is an Islamic ban and not a Universal one.  It is a religious ban and thus can not be expected to be upheld by non-Muslims or non-religious people.  You could, and often should, out of respect, refrain from doing such a deed, but you can not be forced to silence through violence or threats of violence.

As for the motivations behind this whole issue it is pure speculations and, although rightwing extremists have some splendid times these days, not very fruitful to ponder over given the fact that we have no conclusive evidence pointing towards certain motivations.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, first of all, yes it is up to me and any other individual to decide that, as free and independent individuals.

Decide what?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These cartoons are pretty tame, frankly

You are not the one to decide that.  

Yes I am and others too.  That is my prerogative as a free and independent citizen.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think Migeru saw you not noticing Danish bias.

No, he was saying I did not notice anti-Muslim bias with as much alacrity as anti-French or anti-Jewish one. Fair enough, but the site is open for others to do so, and indeed it is being done.


You are not the one to decide that

Then in which case you are not the one to tell me if I should be offended by the behavior of those that choose to represent the Muslims to the world. I am telling you that I am seriously offended by your presumption. Will you apologize to me now?

(I am asking you in jest, but the question is the logical outcome of your contention that the muslims have the sole right to decide what offends them).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, he was saying I did not notice anti-Muslim bias with as much alacrity as anti-French or anti-Jewish one.

That's essentially the same. And what relation does that have with what you then wrote?

Then in which case you are not the one to tell me if I should be offended by the behavior of those that choose to represent the Muslims to the world.

I never told you not to.

muslims have the sole right to decide what offends them

Offense is not a matter of decision. It is emotional. The form one expresses offense can de debated, but I have never challenged your objections to forms of showing offense by Muslims.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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