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I guess there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what constitutes an offense. I say religious people get offended too easily and I say: deal with it, it's your problem, not mine, when the cartoons are so tame. You and Migeru say that they essentially have the right to say what offends them and we have to abide by that.

Well their being offended offends me too, and I DEMAND apologies from them for being such fussy whiners. It's up to me to define what offends me, right? Then they are fucking offensive to me.


I believe in freedom of speech, but it should be used responsibly.

That's typical wingnut code to say : it should be used only as fit MY requirements.

And back to the underlying issue: a muslim was represented with a bomb on his head. Well, what's the religion of that last 500 suicide bombers in the world? It's a caricature that has more than a little bit of link to contemporary reality. They should deal with it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just a serious question.

Are you saying that all that jews that complain about pictures of them in the muslim world (showing them as animal, beast, killers and worst) and nazis groups denying the holocaust ( also depicting them as an infra-human) should just shut up because all those jews offend you for being such a fussy whiners?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See below my additional comments.

Like I said, some offenses are obvious to all and, as a matter of fact, as you have pointed out, a number of them are illegal in many countries of Europe. These cases are best dealt with by the legal system if the authors insist on publishing.

Then we enter the realm of the subjective - precisely things like these cartoons, which I find unremarkable, and that many Muslims obviously find insulting. There is no legal recourse, but there is a first the recours of asking politely. It's not clear if that was done or not, but if it was, it was not successful, leading to more activist protests. At various stages, it might have been defused (whether by the paper publishing a muslim view point, or by Rasmussen talking to the ambassadors) - or it might not. We were still in that grey area.

But now we are outside that area, with muslims (at least those we hear) saying that these cartoons are a scandal, should not be published tolerated, and retaliating with violence. These people are out of line, do not understand how our system works, and I don't see why we should move in any way to accomodate their extremist and invasive demands.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing to say about the third paragraph. Isn't it obvious. Violence has no place here (as in many situations).

My question comes from your view on the two first paragrahs. I find these cartoons clearly offensive.. and I would say that they are clearly offensive to anybody who is muslim and even those that dislike racism. If some people do not find it racist.. well they are entitled to their opinion.....It is very difficult for me to understand why you see some as clearly offensive ( iguess you were referring to the ones banned in Spain) and not this one... I am sorry I must agree with Migeru on that.. if you really think that, I personally think you are clearly biased...but again this is my personal opinion. Do not take it personal..it is a personal perception that I know you just do not care.

In any cae, the most important point is the question about laws. You can always go to court and see if they break the law...and here it is what I do not understand.. why some pictures about jews are illegal and the same one applied to muslims is not considered illegal by our justice system? Isn't there a double standard? what is a muslim supposed to do if he/she sees this double standard.. demonstrate, ask for boycots (for sure they have all the right).. but then they do not get anything...well I guess we can say.. sorry mate.. the system is against you.. live with it..

I  just hope that Europe would be better than that. I just hope that either we have complete freedom of speech (even for KKK, nazis , muslim attacks, christian attacks...) or some common restriction to blatant racist comments in public speech is introduced. One or the other.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the fact that saying certain things in cetain european countries is illegal means there is not free speech. therefore it seems using free speech as an arguement to defend offending Muslims is a pretty poor arguement.
by observer393 on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:31:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what constitutes an offense.

Yes. You want to define them when and to what grade they can feel offended. Not very liberal if you ask me.

That's typical wingnut code to say : it should be used only as fit MY requirements.

Sorry but that's pure paranoia. In your defense of permissible, you managed to eliminate commendable completely.

And back to the underlying issue: a muslim was represented with a bomb on his head. Well, what's the religion of that last 500 suicide bombers in the world?

Well, what's the religion of the last 500 aircraft pilots who threw bombs at civilians? Jérôme, you crossed a certain line here, I wonder if you noticed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On second thought, I think I crossed a line too, that of arrogance, and I could soon cross another, dusting off my flame-thrower. To awoid that, and since I already said all that I could say in the debate, I say sorry to Jérôme if the above was offending and will keep out of this discussion for the debate being.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I understand what you are trying to say. Thanks for keeping me in line!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am still wondering if he really crossed a lined and sounded like a freeper.

If Jerome thinks that all the anti-semitic cartoons in the Middle East are fair and square because  "what is the religion of those israeli pilots and army forcing the occupation of palestinian land" or "what is the religion of the racial jew settlers after all" then I see that he is not discriminating according to his racial references, just advocating a point about free speech (which I would deeply disagree).

It would be consistent to think that those cartoons have some kind of "relation" with reality and all the jews should live with the fact that they can be put in the same basket. So Jerome wil be advocating for free speech for any attack on any race or religion just becasue one or some of its members behave wrongly. He will defend the right to attack any evangelist or christian just because of the KKK. And of course any atheist for the multiple crimes comitted in the name of atheism.

I am not sure if in this last case he would be crossing the line. He will merely advocate a "religious fervor" for free speech. It is a controversial statement in any case but not a racist one.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  • As I wrote before, there are offenses that are obvious to all, and then there is a grey area of ambiguity, which one can abuse or not. I am saying that we are definitely in the grey area, and saying that only one side of the debate has the right to say which way to lean from there is silly. It's like letting George Bush define what a patriot is, it's unilateral disarmament in that debate;

  • Well Americans are being caricatured as bombing civilians. I myself posted such a caricature by Plantu (I cannot find the link right now) of US war planes bombing Iraq and asking "can't they be grateful?" - and if anybody sees some one in a plane bombing civilians, s/he is likely to think they are Americans. Similarly, the only thing most people hear about the Arab world is yet another suicide bombing somewhere. Sure, it only reflects our ignorance, but it's a fact, and the caricature of someone with a bomb immediately brings to mind Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bombers and not Danes or sub-saharan Africans.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:50:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not agree with your second paragrah but I see what you mean and it is clearly not crossing the line though at first read it really sounded racist. I knew you would have an explanation.

And again, the point I will disagree with you to no end is  the first. Who is to decide what is in the grey area and which things not? For me , we are clearly NOT in a grey area here. This is pure racism as fas as I can see (two clearly .. I must admit that a third one could be in the grey depending on how you see it).

I bet that most of the cartoon in the Middle East are not considered at all racist by a great majority.. more or less at the same rate that people in Europe do not consider these cartoons racist. So who is to decide what is blatant? A judge , you will answer.. a judge that in Europe is comletely biased against muslims and pro-catholic and pro-jews and in the Middle East is just the other way around.

Either you stablish complete free of speech or you just wirite down clear laws about restriction of racist comments and how to identify it. Sorry jerome you can not get it both ways: when it is blatant (as I see it) it is fine to be banned , when it is not (as I see it) we should defend it to no end.

And with this I think I have made clear my argument..No point in keep banging on it. I have made up my mind about you and I guess you have made your mind about me...

Talk to you again...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I am not offended by much, and I think that religious - and other slef-righteous - people are much too easily offended, and thus become pains for others.

For instance, I am not offended by this (which is the cover of that album on the Holocaust which was banned by the Spanish supreme court):

(The title itself is great - an ironical comment on Godwin's law)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also do not get offended by racist comments.. I am white :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of an offense that is obvious to all?
by observer393 on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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