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I guess there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what constitutes an offense.

Yes. You want to define them when and to what grade they can feel offended. Not very liberal if you ask me.

That's typical wingnut code to say : it should be used only as fit MY requirements.

Sorry but that's pure paranoia. In your defense of permissible, you managed to eliminate commendable completely.

And back to the underlying issue: a muslim was represented with a bomb on his head. Well, what's the religion of that last 500 suicide bombers in the world?

Well, what's the religion of the last 500 aircraft pilots who threw bombs at civilians? Jérôme, you crossed a certain line here, I wonder if you noticed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On second thought, I think I crossed a line too, that of arrogance, and I could soon cross another, dusting off my flame-thrower. To awoid that, and since I already said all that I could say in the debate, I say sorry to Jérôme if the above was offending and will keep out of this discussion for the debate being.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I understand what you are trying to say. Thanks for keeping me in line!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am still wondering if he really crossed a lined and sounded like a freeper.

If Jerome thinks that all the anti-semitic cartoons in the Middle East are fair and square because  "what is the religion of those israeli pilots and army forcing the occupation of palestinian land" or "what is the religion of the racial jew settlers after all" then I see that he is not discriminating according to his racial references, just advocating a point about free speech (which I would deeply disagree).

It would be consistent to think that those cartoons have some kind of "relation" with reality and all the jews should live with the fact that they can be put in the same basket. So Jerome wil be advocating for free speech for any attack on any race or religion just becasue one or some of its members behave wrongly. He will defend the right to attack any evangelist or christian just because of the KKK. And of course any atheist for the multiple crimes comitted in the name of atheism.

I am not sure if in this last case he would be crossing the line. He will merely advocate a "religious fervor" for free speech. It is a controversial statement in any case but not a racist one.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  • As I wrote before, there are offenses that are obvious to all, and then there is a grey area of ambiguity, which one can abuse or not. I am saying that we are definitely in the grey area, and saying that only one side of the debate has the right to say which way to lean from there is silly. It's like letting George Bush define what a patriot is, it's unilateral disarmament in that debate;

  • Well Americans are being caricatured as bombing civilians. I myself posted such a caricature by Plantu (I cannot find the link right now) of US war planes bombing Iraq and asking "can't they be grateful?" - and if anybody sees some one in a plane bombing civilians, s/he is likely to think they are Americans. Similarly, the only thing most people hear about the Arab world is yet another suicide bombing somewhere. Sure, it only reflects our ignorance, but it's a fact, and the caricature of someone with a bomb immediately brings to mind Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bombers and not Danes or sub-saharan Africans.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:50:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not agree with your second paragrah but I see what you mean and it is clearly not crossing the line though at first read it really sounded racist. I knew you would have an explanation.

And again, the point I will disagree with you to no end is  the first. Who is to decide what is in the grey area and which things not? For me , we are clearly NOT in a grey area here. This is pure racism as fas as I can see (two clearly .. I must admit that a third one could be in the grey depending on how you see it).

I bet that most of the cartoon in the Middle East are not considered at all racist by a great majority.. more or less at the same rate that people in Europe do not consider these cartoons racist. So who is to decide what is blatant? A judge , you will answer.. a judge that in Europe is comletely biased against muslims and pro-catholic and pro-jews and in the Middle East is just the other way around.

Either you stablish complete free of speech or you just wirite down clear laws about restriction of racist comments and how to identify it. Sorry jerome you can not get it both ways: when it is blatant (as I see it) it is fine to be banned , when it is not (as I see it) we should defend it to no end.

And with this I think I have made clear my argument..No point in keep banging on it. I have made up my mind about you and I guess you have made your mind about me...

Talk to you again...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I am not offended by much, and I think that religious - and other slef-righteous - people are much too easily offended, and thus become pains for others.

For instance, I am not offended by this (which is the cover of that album on the Holocaust which was banned by the Spanish supreme court):

(The title itself is great - an ironical comment on Godwin's law)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also do not get offended by racist comments.. I am white :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of an offense that is obvious to all?
by observer393 on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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