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In fact, that would also undermine the racist argument, since there are plenty of Muslim minorities which are NOT Arab. Given, the Arab/Turk/Persian minorities are the largest ones.

But race has never been about a scientific study of your genes, it is about defining groups as higher and lower. And 'immigrants' are the group defined as lower in Denmark today, with connotations of muslem darkies. I would not be surprised if christian or other persons with darker-then-pink skin and an accent find themselves being perceived and treated as muslem by danish society. It is racist, the race in question being (as always) 'the others'.

I can say that in October this publication was clearly perceived in Swedish MSM as a symptom of the growing xenophobia in Denmark and indeed as a "'fuck you' to their Muslim minority". Remember that this was before any violent reaction. Being MSM now appear to have changed to a position were it was justified by the reactions it caused four months later.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 11:45:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Two notes connecting to what you wrote.

First, indeed in racism, perceptions are all that matter. As I said earlier in some other thread, I got my lesson in this in my first few months in West Germany - my non-tendy, 'shabby' communist-bloc clothes, thin composture, and ununderstandable babbling in a foreign language, and possibly the nose, was enough for being identified as a Turk (and treated with the disdain and stereotypes then reserved for them), even with a blue eye and a pale skin.

Second, I got an inside view of the earliest stages of this development in Denmark, via a Danish member of a discussion group I frequented then. She was actually so much fed up with it that she moved to Sweden.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 12:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to look at this in the context of the different attacks by far right racist groups. In the Uk for example incitement to racial hatred is a specific crime. As you rightly point out, being muslim does not identify you as coming from a particular racial or indeed ethnic background. What these racist groups have done is to use religion as a code word for race, thus compalaints that muslims are changing the character of a town directly translates as "Pakistanis" or indeed anybody brown from the sub-continent whether muslim or not. The attacks against "Muslims" are in truth "Pakis out" messages modified to keep within the law.

Similarly, I believe there is a strong co-relation between these attacks on "Islam" in the Netherlands and Germany as substitures for directly racist attacks on those from the Dutch East Indies or on Turkish "guestworkers".

by Londonbear on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 12:56:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to echo exactly my point, but then continue that the concept of 'race' is now just tagged under the religion. I honestly believe that can't be the whole story of it. It has been the Arabic culture that has been portrayed as violent, not the Pakistani one, not Indonesia (biggest Muslim country in the world), not those in Africa. Point is, the most fundamentalistic Islam originates from the Arab world, wahabism is the prime example here.

I won't deny that more xenophobic sentiments with the minorities don't play a possible part, but bringing religion down into a twisted subverted race issue doesn't strike me a convincing argument.

Lastly, when you speak for the Netherlands you are plain wrong. I don't know how I can put that strong enough.

Firstly, the Dutch East Indies and Turkish immigrants are overall well respected and have a good rep. That's one.

It is the Moroccan, dominantly Berber origin, minority that has been cause of extensive scrutiny, in a truly Dutch nothing-held-back way. And drug-dealing, unemployed youth on the streets, a majority Moroccan, does cause trouble. In Rotterdam, the Aruban minority have a similar problem. Naming that is not racist; that's a consequence of the multicultural society where a number of groups drop out for various reasons. It would be if the Dutch began to point out the troubles in Morocco all the time. The Dutch have ignored the growing problem for a while, but after Fortuyn things changed. And Dutch are pretty blunt, especially in their criticism. They call the beast what it is.

Secondly, research that investigated whether the Dutch press was writing more negative about their minorities after the Van Gogh murder found an increase of positive reportings, not a reversal. The message has practically always been: we cannot tolerate militant islamist when they preach to destroy the western, non-islamitic world. That has been the focus. And as I muse below thread, there has been developing a cycle that the majority of Muslims get the feeling they get part of the blame. Which seems a consequence of it.

by Nomad on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 10:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ASKOD, welcome to ET - nice to see you found your way over here. Hope you are well.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:04:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Fran.

I am very well, I hope you are too. Been busy in the real world lately, mostly fun stuff though.

I have been over here a few times before, and had a snack between the drinks over at the moon. But I have not commented before. This place is just so big and fast.

And bright. Hissing sound like a vampire seeing the sunlight

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 10:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To my taste right now in this debate, really. And we seem to forget manners, too. Welcome to ET, ASKOD. Good to see you stopped peeking in from the windows and walked into the club. Have some tea, and perhaps we can dim the light somewhat. ;) Liquor is served after 5 PM. That would be Parisian time, of course...
by Nomad on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 12:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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