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If Jyllands-posten finally apologized after Danish dairy companies complained about the ongoing boycott of their products, it can't have been about freedom of speech but about political power. You're the economist, you should understand this better than the rest of us.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 04:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I am pissed at JP for folding for such low brow reasons.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 05:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe their appeal to freedom of speech was a high-brow excuse.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 05:33:14 PM EST
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What exactly are you saying here? Since I get bad vibes from it.

I'm compelled to your earlier arguments, but I think using the freedom of speech as an excuse for other motivations (as you seem to imply to me by the above post) is nonsense. Then this issue would come down to, "We posted these cartoons not for a reason, but because we could". Sounds exactly like the wrong reason why the US is in the Iraq: "Because we can". There was a dispute on a threatened cartoonist for a book, the JP responded to that with their cartoons, which weren't commendable, and it backfired on them.

by Nomad on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 08:07:45 AM EST
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My last direct experience of Denmark is early in 2000, but already back then there was a lot of anti-immigrant bad vibe going around. There was some questionable anti-immigrant legislation being considered back then, and the rise of the Dansk Folkeparti has been worrisome. Recently five army officers were found guilty of torture in Iraq but the judge ruled that they should not be punished, which is a stark contrast to the way military misconduct was handled in European countries during the 1990s, including one case in Denmark if I remember correctly. Perusing other blogs because of the cartoon controversy I have come across several claims that the atmosphere in Denmark has become nigh unbreathable for progressives.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:05:29 PM EST
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You're not answering the question I asked you, but I get the idea. I think.

Freedom of speech is a right we've won in the western world; it is not a defense that can be used when we get into troubles. By suggesting freedom of speech is a tool (a weapon?) or an excuse you're actually lowering it's genuine value. That ticks me the wrong way.

by Nomad on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 08:31:15 PM EST
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Are you honestly saying that freedom of speech cannot be, has not been, and will not be, used as a weapon? That is naive.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm the first to admit I'm naive, so you could leave that part to me the next time. And those are your words, so I'm not saying them, right? :)

Of course freedom of speech can be abused for evil purposes such as systematic vilification, but if you argue that freedom of speech was used as a weapon in the case of the JP newspaper, I refer back to my rubbish statement.

by Nomad on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 06:55:32 AM EST
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I thought the bad vibe that ticked you the wrong way was a general point, not specific to this particular case. So I refer you back to my reply to your rubbish statement, which addressed the specific case.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't mix up two comments from different posts, I don't appreciate that. I got bad vibes from your possible implications, it ticks me the wrong way when the freedom of speech would be degenerated as an excuse for behaviour.

I refer back to my "Then it is still rubbish" post. I don't see how your reply answers my question. But this is getting me too silly. Perhaps it better to agree to disagree.

by Nomad on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:28:07 AM EST
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We're obviously not communicating since to me it seems like you keep moving the goalposts.

It's not like I have not stated "my possible implications" openly in the case of JP, so I don't know what you're surprised about.

I prefer the sillyness of referring to our own post 4 steps up ad infinitum. I think some silliness might be in order just to lighten everyone up, including myself.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I offer you an infinitely-regressing handshake.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:41:13 AM EST
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I refer you to your previous post and shake it. :)
by Nomad on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:45:35 AM EST
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There you go. Now as long as we can execute each handshake in sufficiently less time than the previous one we can emerge from the whole thing in a finite time. Otherwise we're going to look like siamese twins joined by our right hands.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 07:47:35 AM EST
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This is why discussing with a mathematician is so hard: they can go on ad infinitum and understand the concept while others just need to bail out because they get all confused...
by Nomad on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:19:07 AM EST
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Here's another infinite regression for your enjoyment...


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey - Escher Blogging. Now that would be an excellent, excellent idea!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 06:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is it.

This is what has been bugging me with this whole story. Jyllandsposten was forced to back down by a boycott against danish dairy-products. But economic weapons are something that is considered an acceptable weapon in western debate. When adds are pulled or subsriptions cancelled other papers rarely rally to the defense of free speech by re-publishing the offensive material. Sure they had to attack an indirect target (Arla) to get to their real target (Jyllandsposten). But that is also nothing new. Companies are boycotted for placing adds in (and thus supporting) different papers or events. What is new is that it was the muslem world ralling their consumer power in defense of their danish brethren of the faith and they are not supposed to do that!

Then you get re-publishings, high-and-mighty cries about free speach, demonstrations and bomb-threaths from the bloody Al-Quaeda juvenile squad punk division in charge of cartoons in northern europe. All in a reinforcing circle of events.

So what happened there in the space between the paragraphs? Somehow this was turned from a question of economic power where a western paper was loosing to a question of free speach, were a western paper can hardly loose if fighting muslems (there is always going to be the Al-Quaeda juvenile squad punk division in charge of cartoons in northern europe to issue some threaths if you need to prove you are right). 'Why' is easy. 'How' is little bit harder, depending on the level of details you want.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 10:13:28 AM EST
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The Danish companies have a right to protest.  If they advertise in the newspaper, they can pull their advertisements in protest.  That, too, is freedom of speech.  It, of course, goes both ways.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 09:16:35 PM EST
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