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Of course we need to come forward with a positive vision, and ideas like social partnership -- and cohesion, solidarity, community -- are essential.

But don't underestimate what the non-stop flood of media disinformation is doing: it is shaping people's view of the world, and in that way it is shifting the ground. It's impossible to concentrate on propositions without striking back at the flow of propaganda. Even on this thread on a left-of-centre blog, we can see evidence of the ravages the repetition of the same message can wreak: some people apparently think that, the more they read the same thing in the media, the truer it must be.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I agree. But I would just argue that if we are to re-shape people's world-views in a leftward direction, we will need to appeal to that positive vision (whatever we finally decide it is) and repeat it over and over again, just like the right does.
by TGeraghty on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:39:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 03:05:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, TG, we've sparred on the role of economists and academic economics in society. But, here we come back to the crux. Care to name some significant papers or books that can form the background to an alternative vision?

If you're really fired up, I'd ask that you write a diary with an economically sound alternative vision, but that's a lot to ask and really sounds like I want you to do all the work.

So, point me at a couple of starting points and I'll try applying my layman's touch to it.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 06:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been thinking about a series of "debate" diaries in which we apply the Socratic method to economics to try to figure out exactly what we need to say and why. Just as I was thinking about that, Sven (Triloquist) asked in an open thread why do we have to work? which is exactly  the kind of questions I was thinking about. (I thought about other things like why do we use money?, or why do we pay or demand interest?, and so on).

It's all about taking common economic practice (or conventional wisdom) and asking why, and then why to that, and so on, until we reach a collection of basic, simple assumptions which can be intuitively challenged. Alternatives to these challenged assumptions should also be intuitive, and form the core of the message (or maybe the Lakoffian frame towards which we should try to steer any discussion of economic policy).

Any thoughts?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 06:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please just do it. It's all part of the same sort of issue as discussions of a faireurope thingy.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 06:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Expect Economic Maieutics (I) tonight, then.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 06:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely. And the faireurope text is a good example of where it might be more productive to apply a method like maieutics.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:57:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fear sometimes we think alike. I've been meaning to start a series of "nitpicker" diaries where I ask some really basic questions about the way we conceive of economic policy.

So, I think it's a great idea!

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:10:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's there to fear?

So, what's going on with the UK meetup? Supposedly we have over 50 UK members.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:14:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, I'm unemployed and filled with self-loathing at the moment, so I ran out of motivation to make it happen...

I'll write another diary on it (meetup that is, not my psychological issues) tomorrow night and try and push things forward a bit.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you should try other EU countries, where your study abroad will actually be considered a plus by prospective employers.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:21:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But my nationality remains an handicap... ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could always outsource yourself to India</snark>

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:50:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I've been meaning to put together a diary or series of diaries like that, but then the task seems so daunting that I have never actually sat down to write it.

I'll try to put together some sort of discussion diary along these lines.

by TGeraghty on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 06:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it is daunting, very.  maybe it should be a collective effort for that very reason...  many ants can disassemble a cookie.

one of the sinking feelings I have long had about the mercantilist system and its offspring, modern economics, is the disturbing possibility that the whole idea is fundamentally flawed, and that therefore no amount of tinkering with the model (a la Marx) will suffice to "fix it" in the sense of any optimisation of human happiness.  and if human happiness is "not the point" then we may as well go back to building pyramids for Pharaoh...

dissident views which have influenced my thinking over the years include those of "feral economists" like Cobb and Waring, "outdated" economists like Galbraith, snook-cockers like Czech and Keen, and lateral thinkers  and social critics like Illich, Postman, Prieur, Jensen, Abbey, Callenbach, McKibben, Ritzer (Whitman, Thoreau, Vian, Goldman...), paleo/anthro/social historians like Diamond, Ponting, Braudel... plus speculative futurists of various flavours from Delaney through the cyberpunks, and paisano/indigeno movements worldwide.  I think the very breadth of sources needed to anchor a sweeping critique of contemporary assumptions makes a very high threshold for the endeavour, especially since one of the central assumptions of the structure to be critiqued is specialisation and credentialling.


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A compilation of previously suggested resources can be found here.
by ATinNM on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now as for references, I literally have a whole bookshelf filled with arguments and evidence debunking the ideas that social protection and the welfare state are bad for growth and employment, sketching out alternative employment policies, and proposing new economic doctrines as alternative to neoliberalism.

Let me just point out just three of my favorites, by a journalist, an economic historian, and a sociologist, respectively:

The Economic Illusion: False Choices Between Prosperity and Social Justice by Robert Kuttner

The economic illusion is the belief that social justice is bad for economic growth. . . . prosperity and social justice can be reconciled . . . they can be mutually reinforcing. . . . often social justice produces positive-sum economic gains. . . . All of these issues are deeply political. . . . The range of equality/efficiency bargains that present themselves and the design of social institutions to carry them out reflect balances of political power. Few if any of the choices are merely technical . . .

Growing Public: Social Spending and Ecoonmic Growth since the 18th Century by Peter Lindert

Lindert argues that, contrary to the intuition of many economists and the ideology of many politicians, social spending has contributed to, rather than inhibited, economic growth.

Postindustrial Possibilities: A Critique of Economic Discourse by Fred Block

. . . Block takes as his point of departure the tired concepts of neo-classical economics which, while still dominant, fall short as tools for comprehending contemporary economic forces. . . . . such as the market, labor, and capital. One of its primary foci is a shift toward improved product quality and greater priority for various non-commodity satisfactions such as leisure, interesting work, economic security and a safe and clean environment. It also promotes a recognition that greater economic efficiency rests not on infusions of capital but on cooperative labor relations and on institutional reform.

There is a "varieties of capitalism" literature in political science and sociology (not so much in economics, unfortunately) that takes seriously differences in institutions across countries. Here are some good introductory references:

You can also look at this older comment for some (mostly-US) sources and people to take a look at. Also here and here and here from our old Creating A New Left Economic Manifesto threads.

Some others I particularly like on aspects of the European social model include:

In terms of a general introduction to alternative ways of looking at economics, in addition to the Block book above:

by TGeraghty on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At the risk of shameless self-promotion, there are also more references:

Employment Policy

Monetary Policy

OK, this may be boring stuff to many of you, but necessary, I think.
by TGeraghty on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With the constant propaganda campaign being waged by the Neo-Con/Lib's where the hell are all these people and why aren't they speaking up?
by ATinNM on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean, beyond writing papers and books?

Some kind of joint political statement, maybe?

Here's something along these lines: Alternative Economic Policy for Europe with a list of signatories here.

by TGeraghty on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Writing books and papers is the first step, certainly.

But the next step is getting the message out.

I suggest you, me, and my shorts move the discussion to your diary

by ATinNM on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and Kuttner, of course, is one of the founders of the center-left magazine The American Prospect that is trying to push the debate to the left in the US.
by TGeraghty on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's another good reference:

Social Protection versus Economic Flexibility: Is There a Trade-Off?

Some of the book's conclusions:


  • Little evidence that labor market flexibility is substantially affected by the presence of publicly-provided social protection programs such as employment protection, health insurance, pension benefits, unemployment benefits and income assistance, or childcare and maternity leave; nor is the speed of labor-market adjustment enhanced by limiting such programs.

  • There is more than one kind of flexibility: countries with extensive social protection systems find other ways to adjust to recessions. For example, compared to the US, Germany relies more heavily on adjusting hours of work rather than employment when faced with an economic downturn.

  • Social protection programs provide substantial benefits to workers. Any analysis of the effects of removing social protections must include the costs to workers of doing so, against any benefits in increased employment that might occur.
by TGeraghty on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 03:35:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whoa!

That'll teach me to ask.

Definitely going to have to be a group effort at the moment, I reckon.

Oh well, time to start reading and thinking...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 10:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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