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Thank you, Migeru. I agree with the others: this is quite a useful post. So is the discussion. You guys motivated me to do some reading: i was unfamiliar with the topic. (But i get exciting feedback about Spain from a Bulgarian friend who's studying there. She's fascinated with the architecture. But i haven't heard a word about Spanish men:)))

Vbo's comments made me wonder what effect the resolution of the Basque Country's national question will have on the status of Kosovo. Is it simplistic to say that if the Basque Country gains independence, Kosovo is more likely to gain independence? Of course, the two situations are different, but they share similarities as well, so...

I'm also curious how the resolution of the issue will affect the EU. Is a possible independence going to make things more difficult for it, in terms of distributing resources and negotiating? The union is already suffering from enlargement fatigue and trying to cope with the ailing economies of the member states. And Bulgaria and Romania are expected to join in a year.

by Brownie on Mon Mar 27th, 2006 at 07:40:05 PM EST
All this angst about how everything is going to affect Bulgaria's accession... Chill out!

Talks on Kosovo's final status are taking place as we speak, whereas in the Basque case we don't even have a statement from the Spanish government that they have verified the ceasefire [Zapatero said that "naturally there are ways" in which his Government can know these things]. Give it a full election cycle (2009) before things really start rolling.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 04:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no, i about Bulgaria i meant: how our accession will affect the EU, not vice versa.

Then maybe the outcome of the Kosovo talks will affect the outcome of the Basque question.

by Brownie on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe we in Spain will look down on Kosovo and their uncivilised way of going about things [as befits a Western nation looking at a Balkan one], conveniently forgetting about our Carlism, Civil War, Franco, ETA, GAL...

Really, the Basque country looks up to Ireland, and that's it.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know you're talking about a stereotype. But we can really argue if nationalism and the violence it brings can come in a pretty and clean shape. The Balkans are not inhabited by some crazy people thirsty for blood. So Kosovars and Serbs ARE being uncivilized, but so is any group more nationalistic than it should be. And i realize you were referring to a stereotype.:)))
by Brownie on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:54:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I personally think nationalism is a scourge, but it does come in less virulent, even "pretty clean", strains.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:56:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it does, when there's the right amount of it and when it doesn't come with unrealistic ambitions and stereotyping. If you go overboard, you get the mess. Going overboard is when you cannot accept that what you feel in your heart is wrong. And of course i'm generalizing here.
by Brownie on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 09:08:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no, i about Bulgaria i meant: how our accession will affect the EU, not vice versa.

Then maybe the outcome of the Kosovo talks will affect the outcome of the Basque question.

by Brownie on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me give a more relevant answer to this:
Vbo's comments made me wonder what effect the resolution of the Basque Country's national question will have on the status of Kosovo.
In 1936, the Second Spanish Republic had enacted an Autonomy Statute for Catalonia, was in the process of approving one for the Basque Country, and was drafting one for Galicia. Then the Republic was overthrown, the Nazis bombed Gernika, the symbolic centre of Basque identity, Alava and Navarra sided with the Fascists while Vizcaya and Guipuzcoa sided with the Republic, Franco declared the latter two "traitorous provinces", repressed them for 35+ years, in the 1960's we got ETA as a result, then the Basque got an Autonomy Statute in 1979 and a regional government in 1980, we had state terrorism until 1986, and 20 years later ETA declared a truce.

How is that as a model for Kosovo? Ready to wait another 60 years to see the beginning of the end of the conflict?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 05:12:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are very naive if you think that independence of Kosovo will end conflict...very very naive...
It may fall a sleep for some time but no way it will end anything...you can bet on it! Kosovo and Albanian irredentism is here to stay...There are other victims (Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro...)You haven't seen nothing yet!
by vbo on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:25:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which part of Ready to wait another 60 years to see the beginning of the end of the conflict? makes me "naive" and thinking that Kosovo independence is an end to the conflict?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:35:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm, vbo, your prediction sounds scary. But true, Macedonia was on the verge of civil war. Was it in 1996? But why Greece and Montenegro?
by Brownie on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:50:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because there is also significant number of Albanians in those countries and their goal is to put them all together...It's nowhere near the end. Mark my words!

Something interesting here:

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Opinion/comm_20010205Lygeros.html
Albanian nationalists have never renounced the vision of a "Greater Albania", even though Tirana avoids lending it official support. The West's military intervention and the de facto secession of Kosovo from Yugoslavia have added an aggressiveness to the perspective of the Albanians, who believe it is time to lay claim to as much as possible. American favor allowed the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) to start a rebellion against the Serbs, which gave NATO the opportunity to intervene.

...Sorry I didn't want to highjack your topic

by vbo on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 09:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and I have said before that if the Basque Country (or Catalonia) gained independence the joke would be on France. You'd see territorial claims on the French Basque Country (and the Rosillon).

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't referring to the similarities between Kosovo and the Basque Country, but rather to a spill-over effect. Something like the way the French Revolution inspired other revolutions in Europe. Or how the Rose Revolution inspired the Orange one. But i realize the latter case is a result to a great degree of many similarities between the countries compared.
by Brownie on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:46:41 AM EST
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Some would say the Rose and Orange revolutions were both CIA-inspired, or Soros-inspired, depending on their particular brand of kitchen foil.

I don't see any spillover effects. Even if the actors in the Basque process have drawn inspiration from the Ulster process leading to Stormont, the similarities end there. Especially because the Stormont agreement pales in comparison with the current (and much vilified by the Nationalist) Basque Autonomy Statute, including the ability of the Central Government in London to suspend the Northern Ireland parliament and government, which would be unthinkable in Spain already.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 08:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
How is that as a model for Kosovo? Ready to wait another 60 years to see the beginning of the end of the conflict?
---
I (assume wrongly) thought that you implied that Balkan is lucky because of the fact that Kosovo status is on the table now so they don't need to wait 60 years to end a conflict like Basque country? Sorry...I may misunderstood...my English...
by vbo on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 09:21:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean you just had your civil war, which lasted twice as long as ours. We're about 65 years after the end of our civil war, so maybe the former Yugoslavia will be ready for a peaceful solution in, say, 2135?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 28th, 2006 at 09:24:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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