I find this diary disturbing, and probably not for the reasons the diarist intended. I understand that you have had some negative experiences with Roma, but this diary seems to me to be using the same kind of rhetoric that is used to justify discrimination of minority groups the world over, saying that if Roma are discriminated against, it's because they deserve it? Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to be.
I understand that you have had some negative experiences with Roma, but this diary seems to me to be using the same kind of rhetoric that is used to justify discrimination of minority groups the world over, saying that if Roma are discriminated against, it's because they deserve it? Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to be.
You are not wrong at all. Discrimination, especially in this form is indeed, as you say, employed all around the world and used to oppress minority groups. But my analysis of the post-communist situation actually explains why the gypsies were forced into their state of being - I don't label them "evil"; I also try to explain there reasons for the gypsy stereotype, which you depicted quite well:
So let's see, we've got a veritable grab bag of stereotypes: dirty, illiterate thieves who breed like rabbits and steal because they're too lazy to go to school and work real jobs like we do. Did I miss anything?
This is indeed the general perception of gypsies on the Balkans, something I tried to explain in my diary; what I also tried to convey to the reader, through the use of examples of personal experience, is that I had contact with educated, well-dressed and well behaved gypsies, and I accept their presence happily. In fact I have a couple of friends from Syria, and as dark as their complexion can be, I always enjoy their company - so this is not a discussion on racial differences, but on cultural differences.
Yep, that pretty much seems to be placing the blame squarely on the Roma for the way Bulgarians treat them. If they weren't so awful, we wouldn't be so awful to them. That conclusion ignores the fact that there is a vicious cycle at work here -- poverty and marginalization breed crime, which begets discrimination, which begets more poverty and more marginalization. Do the Roma have the same educational opportunities as other Bulgarians? Are employers willing to hire Roma who are educated and "clean and respectable-looking"? Is there a way out of the cycle, or does society reinforce it? I suspect the latter.
That conclusion ignores the fact that there is a vicious cycle at work here -- poverty and marginalization breed crime, which begets discrimination, which begets more poverty and more marginalization. Do the Roma have the same educational opportunities as other Bulgarians? Are employers willing to hire Roma who are educated and "clean and respectable-looking"? Is there a way out of the cycle, or does society reinforce it? I suspect the latter.
The vicious circle exists for sure, but is given too much credit in justifying the gypsies' attitude and actions, especially in the transition years. Yes, Roma have the same constitutional rights like Bulgarians and Turks (a difference from the Czech Republic, for example), but most importantly, they have the same constitutional obligations - one of them is that they are obliged to go to grade school (I already discussed that in my diary entry), but they simply refuse to do so. This widens the cultural gap even more. And if you are talking about the incredibly high prices of education - no such thing exist in Bulgaria. Grade school is free, in high-school you have to buy textbooks (the price of a textbook in Bulgaria is about 5-15 Euro), the state universities charge about 100 Euro per semester. The average salary in Bulgaria is about 175 Euro. But gypsies don't even go to grade school, because their parents use them for the "family business" (read the diary I linked in the beginning, as well as the Worldpress article, for some statistical information).
About the quotes you posted - can you see a trend here? Every major European country oppresses the gypsies. Have you heard of any other ethnicity being so oppressed? Bulgaria entered the history books for protecting "its" Jews, but yet we see such a strong response to the gypsies - you comment on it very well here:
Most stereotypes are based on some ugly reality, but it is a reality taken out of context and pushed to extremes. So some Roma steal; the answer to the problem of crime is not to be found in scapegoating an entire people, it is in addressing the underlying reasons for crime, which include poverty and discrimination.
You are right! But can you define it, so we can discuss on it? What makes the gypsies to be hated so much throughout Europe? And don't give me the vicious circle again, we are talking about all European and Balkan countries.
I do not feel it is acceptable to say that an entire people can expect to be discriminated against until every last one of them is no longer poor, no longer poorly educated, and no longer on the fringes of society. Because there is no society that has eliminated those things, and no people who deserve marginalization.
There are poor Bulgarians and Turks, but no one discriminates them. I still insists that the reason is the big cultural difference, combined with the economic situation after the end of the communism. Be careful! Is it classified?
I'd instead like to suggest that if you have the time you explore the issues around the Australian aborigines.
It may be that seeing the "cultural vs. racial" discrimination issue in a context that (I presume) is not so close to home there might be something to be learned that applies to this discussion.
This talk of "them" as "the other", as it refers to any group, always triggers warning signs for me, especially if it's tied to negative descriptions of "the other". It reminds me of historical descriptions of Blacks in the USA and all the "cultural" reasons that were given to justify segregation or deny the right to vote or even justify slavery (I'm thinking more in historical terms here but there would be plenty to say about contemporary discrimination as well). It also reminds me of the othering of Jews and the horrors of pogroms and WWII as well as the othering of the whole African continent. The romantic notion of the "noble savage" (wiki), the paternalistic notion of Africans as children that needed protection, or the notion of the threatening "savage" with immoral behavior and vise or "the primitive" both probably in need of missionary intervention.
I'm glad you happily accept the presence or "educated, well-dressed and well behaved gypsies" but doesn't that description sound terribly condescending as well?
A web report by the European Roma Rights Center titled "Roma Rights 1/2006: Exclusion from Employment"
Darin let me push you a bit to clarify your position. Are you arguing that because "gypsies are hated so much throughout Europe" that hatred is justified?
I was discussing the quotes from one of the previous comments. The author claimed that gypsies were oppressed, and horribly, through the years and throughout Europe. I accept that, I even mentioned the horrible attitude toward gypsies during the communist government. What I am trying to get at is, why are gypsies so widely hated? I understand the notion of pure racism and why some people would simply hate them for their looks, but as I said, I am not a racist (I have different friends from around the world, some asians, others arabs, etc.). So if not their looks, what's left? I can only think of the cultural differences and the economic hardship of the last 15 years in Bulgaria. But then again, not all European countries are as poor as Bulgaria, so why are gypsies hated there? I raised this discussion in hope to get to the point with your help.
This talk of "them" as "the other", as it refers to any group, always triggers warning signs for me, especially if it's tied to negative descriptions of "the other". It reminds me of historical descriptions of Blacks in the USA...
In Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society. Bulgarians are mad, because they pay their taxes and can't raise their kids properly, while at the same time gypsies live off social welfare, because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed. They don't even pay for their electricity and government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos, because they are usually attacked for trying to cut off their electricity.
Last month a police car went in one of the ghettos, investigating a group of gypsies, who attacked someone (don't remember whether Bulgarian or gypsy). The people started throwing rocks at them and a couple of the gypsies attacked the police car with axes, I actually saw the photos, quite scary. So how can you expect people not to draw a line between the gypsies and themselves? Be careful! Is it classified?
Why do you look for a justifiable reason for racism? Jews, too, were hated universally. Many Christians believed that Jews sacrifice children, with zero basis in reality.
Alexandra spoke about a vicious cicle. That long history of the repression was also a long history of again and again reinforced and refined negative stereotypes about the Roma.
Have you read hitchhiker's link in the other thread? About the systematic media mis-representation of the Roma in Bulgaria, exemplified by that 1997 event when all the papers wrote in great detail about how a Roma family walking across a road caused a bus crash, yet police declared ten days later that no one at all walked across or along the road?
Racism needs no proof. They can make it up anytime.
In Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society.
You just said you aren't racist. So why this blanket statement?
Do "well-clad, clean and behaving" Romas not fit into society (ones that shopkeeper thought hitchhiker is)?
And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are. Either that, or we could speak of parallel societies. At any rate, they don't deserve you anything. (It's more like the majority deserves inclusion to the minority, due to their greater dependence.)
As for the rest of the rant (of blanket statements again), haven't the others just discussed the origins of this situation, and the lack of real attempts to change it?
By the way, have you read my accounts of how police and judges deal with Roma in the other thread? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Lemme refine this. Racism can also operate with proof - by turning the particular into the general. "some X did Y" becomes "X do Y". And unless members of X are 100% innocents, racism will always find examples to reinforce the theory. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Lemme refine this. Racism can also operate with proof - by turning the particular into the general. "some X did Y" becomes "X do Y". And unless members of X are 100% innocents, racism will always find examples to reinforce the theory.
n Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society. You just said you aren't racist. So why this blanket statement? Do "well-clad, clean and behaving" Romas not fit into society (ones that shopkeeper thought hitchhiker is)? And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are.
And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are.
I will try to explain again. Most gypsies live in "katuns", i.e. they live with their families and neighboring families. Others, "institutionalized" gypsies, live in aparatment buildings, just like the Bulgarians and Turks, and they usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors. Since even policemen don't wander in the katuns unless something really gruesome happens (and even then they might get attacked), the gypsies there have a bigger freedom to do as they will (Bulgarian law or not).
Either that, or we could speak of parallel societies. At any rate, they don't deserve you anything. (It's more like the majority deserves inclusion to the minority, due to their greater dependence.)
Parallel societies within the legal boundaries of a country? If you go to another country, don't you willfully agree to be legally bound to the system in power?
What do you mean they don't deserve us anything? If they are within the legal boundaries of the state of Bulgaria (and mind you, a state that constitutionally inhibits ethnic conflicts and provides equal rights to everyone with a Bulgarian citizenship), they are obliged to follow the law, or face the consequences. In other words, they should pay their taxes just as we do, or they are breaking the law. Are you trying to give gypsies more rights than to Bulgarians or Turks?
We are seeing an interesting phenomenom - gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country, and in fact, they really don't need to - they can understand each other perfectly in the katun.
By the way, have you read my accounts of how police and judges deal with Roma in the other thread?
Must of skipped it, will read it right away, though I can imagine. I will comment on that on the other thread! Be careful! Is it classified?
BTW, I once trekked in Slovakia with a friend, who had this idea that Gypsy quarters are no-go zones for "whites". But our road from the train station to the woods led through a Gypsy quarter. I told him "So what?" and he had to follow... On the way back to the station in the evening, he was unconcerned
Actually the Bulgarian government had your vision of ghettos being safe, so they built a metal docking station (the ghetto is near the port of Burgas). Gypsies managed to disassemble it for about half an year, including the big crane, which was used for work. Metal is expensive, so near the ghetto there are no road signs or grates on the ground, just big holes, than can cause driving accidents. Be careful! Is it classified?
I take you weren't attacked in the ghetto, nor have been into many ghettos (I suspect you have been to none), so your position is not too logical. Even if near, the docking site is outside the ghetto, and scrap metal thievery is not the same as robbery, so again two illogical links, and I again get the sense of a sweeping statement about something that all/most Gypsies do. And question regarding the docking station is, of course, proper guarding.
Now, scrap metal thievery is another separate problem usually linked to Gypsy perpetrators, one I as someone working for a railway is familiar with, so this shall be the main part of my reply. This is also to inform the Westerners here about something they may not know much about.
A number of nomadic Gypsy clans used to be specialised in collecting nicked or broken metalware from peasants, and either repairing and re-selling it, or bringing it to scrap metal handlers. After the 'communist' dictatures crushed nomadic lifestyles and the 1989/90 changes brought joblessness and a throwaway economy, some members of these clans switched to thievery of public property, including metal in disused state factories, railroad catenary, signal cables, even rails.
The first thing I note is, obviously, that metal thieves aren't necessarily active only near their dwelling places. They are even active beyond borders. When catenary is stolen along a strech of 30 km, that's long already. One spectacular case was the tearing-up of railway tracks leading to a prison near Munich in Germany. In Hungary, I once read of a gang from Romania being caught.
The second thing to note is that while Gypsies are usually assumed as perpetrators hereabouts, it can't be taken for certain that Gypsies constituted the thieves. A counterexample: I once participated (in a very small part) in a project to re-live a narrow-gauge railway, where a difficulty was that most of the rails were torn up and stolen - reportedly by local villagers who came with carts and lorries. There are no Gypsy quarters in villages of that region (but there is poverty). Meanwhile, in Northern Germany, metal theft is usually blamed on Polish organized crime (and there are very few Gypsies in Poland).
The third, and most important, thing to note is that every form of theft not for own consumption is a supply/demand problem, which is best solved on the demand side, and so far we only looked at the supply side.
The demand side problem is crooked scrap metal handlers who don't look at the origins of what they buy (and reap most of the profit from the theft, I note) - some of them even designate targets to the thieves -, and controllers who are either corrupt or have insufficient means/time for the job. (My railway sometimes sent out scouts on its own, and then scrap metal handlers shrugged when asked how they could buy two tons of cables with a railway emblem two days after the media were full of the news of a hit on a railway line.) *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
The father of a friend of mine usually operates rather big train composition; he used to handle the train going to Sofia. He was once rewarded with a medal for stopping just in time, some 20-30 meters before a large cut section on the railway tracks. He saw the gypsies using anglecutters from afar, for what I remember, so he was able to stop the train from derailing just in time. Be careful! Is it classified?
I think you severely underestimate a few things, including the difficulty of overcoming discrimination by sheer force of will, and the cumulutive effects of hundreds of years of systematic oppression.
You have here a people who have been enslaved, executed, excluded and forcibly sterilized. Their children have been taken from them "for their own good." They have at some times been banned from churches and at other times forced to attend them. It seems that there is not a country in Europe that has not persecuted them, with America doing its share of that as well.
After centuries of that kind of treatment, you can't just snap your fingers and tell people that they can trust "mainstream" society now. You know how long memories are in the Balkans; 1389 was just yesterday, right?
And it is clear from your diary and hitchhiker's that they can still count on being discriminated against, whether they fit the stereotype or not.
There is a name for blaming and punishing an entire group for the actions of some of its members. It's called collective punishment, and it was specifically outlawed under the Genevea Conventions, specifically in the Fourth Convention, article 33, and the Second Protocol.
Those particular chunks of international law refer to armed conflict, not peaceful democracies, but I would argue that collective punishment is even less justifiable in the absence of war.
As you point out, there continues to be widespread discrimination against Roma in many countries in Europe, some of it still quite systematic. The first thing that needs happen is that those countries with discriminatory laws on their books need to change them.
Let us take your specific example of education. Assuming that you are correct about Roma "refusing" to send their children to school (and you do say that you know some educated Roma, so it can't be 100 percent true), the solution lies not in berating the Roma for doing this, but in finding out why they place so little value on education and doing something to address those factors.
My guess is that if this is true of some families, it is because they see no benefit in education.
This is a major issue in many developing countries, especially in rural/agricultural communities, and especially when it comes to the education of girls. When education of a child will do nothing to benefit the family or the community, but will deprive the family and community of the work of a productive member, what's the incentive to let the child go to school?
Are people willing to hire educated Roma? I asked this question before, and it's important. If an educated Rom is not significantly more likely to find work than a non-educated Rom, what's the incentive to get an education? Why make the effort, if potential employers will turn you away as a "dirty gypsy" and shopkeepers kick you out of their stores before you can spend your money?
Rather than just berate the Roma for intrasigence and "refusal to change," a more productive approach would be addressing the root causes of their marginalization. And taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination against them is a good place to start.
If the cycle is to be broken, it must start somewhere. You seem to be expecting the victims of discrimination to stop others from discriminating against them. I would argue that the people doing the discriminating are the only ones who can do that.
I still think the basic problem is in saying that it's their fault that they're discriminated against.
They are discriminated against, because of the general notion against gypsies, you are right. But it is not like they suddenly changed their ways, so they stopped stealing and are extremely eager to integrate into the society, but we don't allow them to, right?
You have here a people who have been enslaved, executed, excluded and forcibly sterilized. Their children have been taken from them "for their own good."
There was an uproar from the media about big numbers of gypsies going to Greece to give birth and sell their kids. They were OK with it, but some started reporting to the Bulgarian police, that they have been cheated, and received less money than expected. Gypsies didn't even know that human trafficking was against the law.
This proves another point. People in western societies wouldn't mind having a gypsy for a kid, while people from the Balkans put gypsies without parents in foster homes and leave them there growing up without any love from anyone close to them. The only good side is that receive some basic education there (though this is far from comforting).
It seems that there is not a country in Europe that has not persecuted them, with America doing its share of that as well.
Last night I read that Sweden gave more gypsies than Jews to the Nazis. You are right here.
I mentioned we have a shop and had a lot of gypsies create troubles for us in the past. Yet we never refused a gypsy to enter the shop and buy goods. In fact we used to trade with some of them, trying to have a business of their own. But if a gypsy enters the shop, all eyes will be on him, watching his every move - you can't forget how gypsies used to steal clothes or pick pocketed the customers.
There is a name for blaming and punishing an entire group for the actions of some of its members. It's called collective punishment, and it was specifically outlawed under the Genevea Conventions, specifically in the Fourth Convention, article 33, and the Second Protocol. Those particular chunks of international law refer to armed conflict, not peaceful democracies, but I would argue that collective punishment is even less justifiable in the absence of war.
Let us take your specific example of education. Assuming that you are correct about Roma "refusing" to send their children to school (and you do say that you know some educated Roma, so it can't be 100 percent true), the solution lies not in berating the Roma for doing this, but in finding out why they place so little value on education and doing something to address those factors. My guess is that if this is true of some families, it is because they see no benefit in education. This is a major issue in many developing countries, especially in rural/agricultural communities, and especially when it comes to the education of girls. When education of a child will do nothing to benefit the family or the community, but will deprive the family and community of the work of a productive member, what's the incentive to let the child go to school?
A deep bow for that. You managed to put your finger on the issue. Gypsies have big families, because that means high income (the Chinese "syndrome").
If you are a black person, though, you wouldn't meet such disrespect; there were a lot of African students in Bulgaria during the communist time (some Asian as well). So we are still facing a general distrust in gypsies.
Rather than just berate the Roma for intrasigence and "refusal to change," a more productive approach would be addressing the root causes of their marginalization. And taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination against them is a good place to start. If the cycle is to be broken, it must start somewhere. You seem to be expecting the victims of discrimination to stop others from discriminating against them. I would argue that the people doing the discriminating are the only ones who can do that.
In fact this is the first time someone called me a racist, and I felt horrible after you wrote that. Not one of my international friends ever called me that, even though we discussed such issues several times. You could label me stubborn, but why racist?
Actually I expected to discuss the cultural side of the conflict, but of course, the conversation quickly jumped into a racist discussion, which I wanted to avoid from the very beginning. Be careful! Is it classified?
This diary and your comments on it are full of sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes about an oppressed minority. It sounds to me, and apparently to several other people who have commented on this thread, that you are arguing that discrimination against an entire ethnic group is justified because some members of that group do things you don't like.
If that is not what you mean, perhaps you need to clarify your statements a bit further.
I just had a discussion with my friends about this thread, who comforted me, saying that it is always hard to explain the problem with gypsies to a foreigner; over lunch they asked me to illustrate to you (and the readers) the situation with a specific example, which they reminded me of.
Have you seen Dave Chapell's show, he's a black American comedian, who likes discussing just such issues. He says, "Now, there are niggers and black people. I can't stand the average nigger that tries to get away with crimes, because that gives black people a bad image."
Do you now understand how Bulgarians perceive the Roma? We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't. The average Bulgarian is not a racist, but an extreme patriot, something typical for the Balkan nations. Be careful! Is it classified?
If I am robbed by someone with blue eyes, it does not make it OK for me to despise all people with blue eyes. If I see my fellow citizens discriminating against innocent blue-eyed people, it is my responsibility to say something.
Do you now understand how Bulgarians perceive the Roma?
I never had a problem understanding that. What I don't understand is why you would defend it, instead of trying to change it.
We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't.
It doesn't sound to me like that is true.
And what I am trying to say to you is that no matter what, it is not OK to demonize an entire people.
Never meant otherwise, that's why I created this discussion. If I didn't care for the attitude towards Roma, I wouldn't discuss it. Now I am concerned that international viewers of the discussion automatically took the side of the minority, which is extremely disturbing.
I want to change the way Bulgarians threat people who look like Roma. Some don't have a problem with that - most Bulgarins engage in helping Roma children in foster homes and really like it (and there are mostly Roma children there). But I would never acquit anyone who resides in Bulgaria and doesn't play by the rules, which all the others have to follow (not breaking the law, paying taxes, etc.). If the Roma want Bulgarian citizenship, then they are expected to follow the law, just as the rest of us.
We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't. It doesn't sound to me like that is true.
As I said in my replies, we own a shop and trade with Roma, because some of them travel outside Bulgaria and act as dstributors. Additionally, there are famous Roma orchestra, which are great. There are small Roma firms as well. But you won't see big Roma bosses (except the so called "barons", basically Roma mafia bosses) or Roma salesman. I am surprised that even international companies refuse to hire Roma, even though they don't have a long history in Bulgaria (and hence be culturally biased). Be careful! Is it classified?
